We also talk about how to find your identity if it changes because you’re no longer obsessively dieting or exercising.

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Summer:
This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting and intersectional feminism. I am your host. Summer innan, a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence, and the best selling author of body image remix, if you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 314 and I’m joined by Abbie Attwood, who is an anti diet, weight, inclusive nutritionist with a master’s in clinical nutrition. We’re talking about Abby’s experience with obsessive compulsive disorder and an eating disorder, and why there is such an overlap between these conditions and what helped her most during recovery. We also talk about how to find your identity if it changes, because you’re no longer obsessively dieting or exercising and so much more. You can find the links mentioned at summer innan.com, forward, slash, 314,

I want to give a shout out to Terry, who left this review. These podcasts are so informative and helpful. Each episode teaches you something and is so on trend with today’s topics, listen now. Thank you so much for leaving that review. I greatly appreciate it. You can support the podcast through my ko fi account. Go to K O dash, fi.com, forward slash summer in and in. And you can make a one time or monthly contribution to support the podcast for as little as $5 a month, you can help keep this podcast on the air for another season, and you’ll also get access to my mini course conquering negative body talk. You can find the link to that always in the show notes as well as in the episode information. And if you don’t have the financial means to support the show. You can support it by leaving a review or subscribing, and if you haven’t already done so, I’ve got some free resources for you. You can find the 10 day body confidence makeover with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body over at summer Inn and in.com forward slash freebies. And if you’re a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles, get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innan.com. Forward slash roadmap.

I’m super excited about today’s guest. We have been trying to coordinate this for a while, and I’m sure you’re familiar with Abbie. She’s got an amazing podcast, as well as her social media presence and her nutrition and body image business. Abbie Atwood is an anti diet, weight inclusive nutritionist with a master’s in clinical nutrition. She is the owner of Abby Atwood wellness, a business that provides both individual and group, virtual nutrition therapy and body image coaching. She’s also the host of the full plate podcast and newsletter. Abby’s experience with an eating disorder happened at the intersection of competitive, running, neurodivergence and severe chronic illnesses, all of which have made her especially passionate about working with those who don’t always see themselves in the traditional picture of disordered eating. She works with clients around the globe, supporting them in healing from disordered eating, chronic dieting, body shame and compulsive exercising to move to a kind and respectful relationship with their body. Let’s get started with the show.

Hi Abbie, welcome to the show.

Abbie:
Hi, summer. It’s so good to see you.

Summer:
It’s so nice to have you here, and I’m excited to finally be recording this episode with you. I know we’ve been talking about doing this for a while, and you’ve had me on your podcast a couple times, which has been such an honor. So thank you for being here today.

Abbie:
Yeah, it’s always good to talk to you. I always feel like I could talk to you forever. So it’s dangerous with a podcast.

Summer:
I know, I know, if only we’d been recording like, the pre, the preamble that we were having, I know the last 20 minutes. So tell everyone. I would love to just know a little bit more about your story and what brought you to this work.

Abbie:
Yeah, and I’ll try to give the I know we have a lot to talk about in general, so, like, I’ll try to give a shortened ish version, but it kind of like leads into everything, anyways. But I’d say, you know, background, background. I grew up like a very, I was very anxious kid, very just kind of, you know, a lot of just labeled as kind of like a worry wart, I guess, you know, flash forward, mental illness, yeah. But, uh, yeah. But I was really social kid, and I was fine, you know, really high functioning, and very much an athlete. Growing up like my family was a big athlete family. I come from a family of doctors, and that definitely, like, infiltrated the way that, like, food and bodies were talked about in our home. But I was really lucky. I always say, like, there wasn’t dieting in my home, and that. Came from, certainly, like, a place of body size privilege that, genetically, my family has. I think that was a big thing, but I was really lucky to be very protected from that. Like we kind of, like, ate whatever. But I guess my interest in a lot of this came about when I was in college and away from home and started really witnessing a lot of, like, disordered eating behaviors, especially in sports that I took part in, but just kind of how pervasive it was. And then at that time, and we can get into this a little bit more later, my mental health really kind of like hit a crisis point with anxiety and OCD and panic attacks, and it kind of spiraled and dovetailed with chronic illness and my athletic identity into, like an eating disorder, to kind of cope with everything that was going through at that time. And I actually didn’t go into the work that I do now, which is like working, as you know, in nutrition and body image until later. Like I’m a career switcher, as one would say. So I was actually in health policy for about 10 years, and I did study like food economics and health economics post grad. So, like, I was really interested in that. But eventually, once I really healed, and I found like Health at Every Size, and this is still 15 years ago or something, I realized I wanted to go back to school and help people with this. I think the social justice aspect of it was really what kind of clicked for me and helped me fully heal. I was struggling for a long time until I kind of could tie all those pieces together. So I went back to school to get a master’s in Clinical Nutrition, and then started my practice, and have just been really interested in the intersection of, you know, eating disorders and neuro divergence, chronic illness, athletes, kind of, everything like that. But yeah, so it was, hopefully a shortened version. There’s a lot in there.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s super interesting. I don’t think I realized your I didn’t. I don’t think I knew your story and I didn’t. I didn’t know about you, your history being an athlete as well, or your history with with mental, different mental health challenges. And so it’s, it’s interesting, like, just to always hear what brought people to this work. Because I think, you know, in a lot of, the majority of cases, it’s like they had these issues almost more as a child. So it’s interesting that you’re sort of kicked in a bit, not later, but like, more in that university phase, which I think is, like, super common too, for that’s when a lot of eating disorders happen. But sometimes that’s primed when you’re a kid, when from like, your you know your upbringing and whatnot,

Abbie:
for sure, I do think, like I do think it’s, I think it’s, it’s strange that I didn’t struggle with it as a kid. I think it is just the fact that I was protected from any of that and just allowed to eat freely. And again, like, I think that might have been really different if I didn’t have straight size privilege, right? Like, I can imagine that had I had a different body as a kid, that maybe my food would have been policed more, or my body would have been judged more, and then I would have developed those things earlier. So I think I was protected, and I was really lucky, but it definitely hit a whole crisis point, like around 19 years old, I think is when it all started kind of coming to a head.

Summer:
Mm, hmm, yeah. And so you mentioned obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, and that really does have a high CO morbidity rate with eating disorders. So I guess for people listening like, what? Maybe, if they don’t know, like, what is, what is? OCD, let’s start with that, just to kind of lay the groundwork.

Abbie:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think OCD, I mean a lot of mental illnesses, obviously mental health disorders like come with a lot of stigma and a lot of misconceptions, but CD has a lot of them, and I think it’s almost helpful to start with, like, what it’s not. I think a lot of people use it as this kind of adjective or verb. Sometimes, like, Oh, I’m being so OCD, like, I’m cleaning my hands, or I’m so OCD, I’m organizing my desk or, you know, and I like to say, like, that’s just not a, it’s like something I really hope we can stop using the term in that way. But B, it’s not always something that you can see, like, I personally never did. A lot of the common kind of ideas of what OCD looks like, are like, oh, somebody who, like, obsessively washes their hands, or, you know, has to flick the light switch, you know, 12 times. Or, you know, count certain things, or, you know, is really afraid of contamination things like that, like that was never something that I struggled with. So I think starting with what it just like looking at that and just saying, you know, some people are perfectionistic about certain things. That doesn’t mean you have OCD, right? Or some people like to, you know, really are very aware of, like, cleaning their hands or being really organized. That doesn’t mean you have OCD. You said it it starts. It stands for obsessive compulsive disorder, and it’s really important, like there are both obsession. And compulsions. So the obsessions are like these persistent, intrusive thoughts, right? Again, something you can’t see that somebody’s experiencing. And then there are like repetitive behaviors or mental actions that are the compulsions. And I think people don’t recognize that they can be mental and so again, the compulsions. Whereas somebody might think, Oh, it’s just the behavior of like tapping something or cleaning their hands, some people might not have any behavioral compulsions, and their compulsions might all be happening in their head, like they’re ruminating over something for hours a day, right? So I think it’s not always visible, and it can cause I mean, the difference between somebody who just feels like they’re obsessing, quote, unquote, over something, versus somebody with OCD is like it causes so much distress, and the thoughts are really unwanted, often, like they, you know, inflict a lot of shame, and people don’t talk about them. I mean, they’re not just, oh my gosh, you know, I’m I’m worried my hands aren’t clean. It can be like, Oh my gosh, what if I just drive off a bridge? Or what if I, you know, what if I hurt my pet? Or, you know what I mean, like these ideas in your head that are really distressing and upsetting and counter to your values and who you are, but make you question who you are, if that makes sense,

Summer:
yeah, and so I can see how, and correct me if I’m wrong. But if you have an eating disorder, the it’s, it’s, there’s a lot of overlap there with the you know, whether it’s like obsessing over this calorie is going to make me gain weight. Or I need to wait until, like, kind of creating, sort of like these, like, I need to wait until noon before I get I’m allowed to eat X amount of food. Or, like, to me that that that feels like there’s, it feels like there’s a lot of overlap there. Like, is that, was that your experience, like, did one kind of then manifest into the eating disorder behaviors, like, is that sort of, what was that your experience?

Abbie:
That’s such a good question. Yeah, there’s a ton of overlap, I would say, like, it can be really hard to distinguish, but if, if you have one or the other sometimes, right? Yeah. I mean, I think they both involve a lot of they both involve a lot of obsessions and compulsions, like you named some of them, right? Like, even if you’re really struggling with your body image, a lot of people relate to doing a lot of body checking behaviors, for example, that can be really compulsive, you know, and then obsessing over calorie counts and stuff. I think the difference is if, if it’s all primarily, you know, my understanding and my experience was, if those obsessions and compulsions are primarily about food and body, it’s probably about body and eating and not OCD, right? But then there is a lot of overlap. I think it’s like 38% or something. The last time I was looking at the research of people with OCD have eating disorders, but they both involve obsessing. They both involve a lot of perfectionism, a lot of rigidity, a lot of control, a lot of fear and anxiety. But you asked a great question, like, kind of did one kind of snowball or affect the other? I had? I definitely I didn’t know I had OCD. It went undiagnosed most of my life, but looking back, it definitely predated having an eating disorder, but it put me at a really high risk for an eating disorder, because in an attempt to like escape all the intrusive thoughts that were super upsetting, I wound up turning to other things that could help me escape my brain. And as an athlete, working out was one of those things, and that started this obsession with exercising to escape my brain. Literally, it was, like the only thing I could think of at that time to get out of my own head. I had a certain type of OCD where you obsess over, like, automatic bodily functions, so like breathing. I couldn’t stop thinking about my breath and like, if I I thought, oh my gosh, if I stop thinking my breath, I’m going to stop breathing and I’m going to die, right? Like, that was a constant intrusive thought for me. The only thing that helped me escape that was running because I couldn’t really control my breath anymore. Do you know what I mean? You start Yes. So that’s just one example of how it started triggering those behaviors. And then, of course, if you already are predisposed to the like obsessing and the compulsive mental tracking and rumination your brain can, like, stick really easily to disordered eating behaviors, right? Like food tracking and, yeah, stuff. So that definitely put me at a high risk for that. And, yeah, it was, it was interesting, because I think, you know, summer, I think you’ve probably talked about this on the pump. I’m trying to remember, I feel like you’ve, you’ve done an you’ve done an episode on, like, the Minnesota starvation right? Study. So I think that’s a really interesting example. That study shows how what happens to the brain when we’re malnourished, yes. And so I. I can look back and say, oh my gosh, my experience of OCD actually got so much worse while I had anorexia because of my brain being so malnourished and, like, cognitively not functioning well. So like, that was the worst it ever was. Was when I was under eating and restricting, which is another way that they kind of affect one another, at least for me,

Summer:
yeah, like, one would drive the other Right? Like, and it’s Yeah, yeah. And my understanding with like, with OCD, when there are behaviors, is that, like, those behaviors provide some sort of relief, right? So, like, yes, if the running provides you with that relief, right, then it becomes something that, like, you would be even harder to stop, right? So it’s I imagine that like that presents challenges in in recovery, because it’s probably that much harder. I’m guessing, I don’t know, you can tell me to to kind of stop some of those behaviors, because they were like, a way to manage the mental struggle that was going on, like, the intrusive thoughts, like you said,

Abbie:
Yeah, it really was like, and it was really confusing for me, because a lot of at that time, everything that I was going through was labeled as an eating disorder, but I didn’t relate to a lot of the diagnostic criteria for eating for an eating disorder personally, like, I was like, I don’t that’s not why I’m doing this thing. I’m doing this thing because I’m trying to escape or neutralize or replace these really unwanted thoughts, right? And that that running, running as an example, happened to be one of those things. But there were other things that weren’t related to my body, you know? And so it wasn’t really about my body image at first, the running and the disordered eating, but then what happens is, and I’ve seen this clinically, and I’m curious, like, how you’ve seen this too, is, like, the more we do those things and the more we focus on them, the worse our body image becomes. Anyways, like, so it did end up spiraling into concern over my body and fear of weight gain, right? Like, so it it did. It was really weird. Like, it didn’t start that way, but it wound up that way. And so it was a really confusing experience too. Like, I didn’t know what was causing, what, why I was doing what anymore. And then, to your point, it made it really hard to let go of certain things that had helped me escape these, like, really traumatic thoughts and really, like, things that I did not want to be experiencing or thinking about all the time. You know?

Summer:
Yeah, wow, wow. And so what would you say helped you in recovery from that then, like, was there anything that we found to be particularly helpful? I know there’s probably a lot of things, but just curious.

Abbie:
You know, something that I learned along the way that really helped me distinguish between, like, what I was experiencing, which one and not that it always matters. But I do think treatment differs between the two. There are some there are some ways that treatment for an eating disorder and treatment for OCD can look the same, but at the same time, like, not always. And so for me personally, it was really important to understand and learn that I had OCD. It was really, really important to learn that about myself. And I actually appreciated that, because having that and knowing that allowed me to be like, Oh, these are these thoughts. Are not me like, you know. And I think we can all if we’ve if anyone listening has struggled with disordered eating, or an eating disorder, or just body shame in general, like, that’s a really helpful thing to recognize that, like, your thoughts are not you, and you can have a thought and not act on it. You can have a thought and not validate it with a behavior, right? That was one of the most helpful things for me to be like, it’s okay, because basically what you start feeling is so much shame over your thoughts. But if you start to be like, I can’t control these. I can control whether I decide to engage in a compulsion to like cope with the thought, Do you know what I mean? And so, yeah, the more that I was validating the thought by engaging in a compulsion, whether it was like mental or behavioral, the more that it just perpetuated it, because it like reinforced it, you know. So that was really helpful to be like, it’s okay. The thought does not make me a bad person. It is not something I have to do. It is not something that is true, like, even when it comes to like our bodies, like we can have a really negative thought about our body and still choose to treat our bodies with kindness and respect that day and say, like, the thought can exist. It’s not my fault the thoughts there. I’ve learned this somewhere, but I don’t have to. I don’t have to obey it, or, you know, validate it. So that was one thing. The other thing that helped me a lot was this concept of ego dystonic and ego syntonic. Have you heard about that? No, it’s really interesting. So, like, the difference between a primary difference for me was so OCD 10. To be. Let me make sure I get this right, ego dystonic, where the person is aware of their thoughts and actions being irrational and they don’t want to be having them like those thoughts and actions are at odds with their values and who they are. But what’s interesting is, with an eating disorder, or disordered eating or body image, right, or dieting, it’s actually ego syntonic, usually, where those behaviors and those thoughts actually align with what you think you should be doing. You’re like, yeah, no, I don’t like my body, therefore I should be restricting, therefore I should be right, like you. So, like, somebody will have a really hard time giving up an eating disorder, right? Like,

Summer:
it’s validated by society, right?

Abbie:
Yeah, exactly. So, like, I mean, I think most therapists, or, you know, nutritionists and dietitians who who work with people with eating disorders can relate to, like, trying to help somebody heal from the eating disorders. Like, it feels like you’re, like, trying to pull it away from them. And they’re like, no, no, this is mine, and I need it, right? But with OCD, people are like, take this shit and get it out of my brain, right? Okay. Does that make sense? It’s totally Yeah, yeah. So that helped me a lot to start distinguishing because actually, like, I never related to I was actually felt a lot of shame about the way I ate when I was struggling with an eating disorder I never related to, thinking like I was doing something, quote unquote right, or quote unquote healthy, like, I know some people do, especially with, like, orthorexia and everything, right? I never felt that way. I was really ashamed of what I was doing. I didn’t want to be doing it. I didn’t like that I was doing it. I didn’t want people to know about it. I never felt it, never felt in alignment with my values, that I was restricting, and so that was really painful in of itself, because I was like, I can’t stop doing this, but I know it’s not what I want. But a lot of us do get to that point with eating disorder healing anyways, where we start recognizing that,

Summer:
yeah, and so then, in other words, like that can be a catalyst to helping you, like, recover, right? Because you, you truly just don’t want that, right? Where it’s different, when it’s like, no, I need this. Like, this is, I can’t exist without this.

Abbie:
Yeah, and I think it helps, like, self compassion in both, both cases helps so much, right? Because if you’re struggling with disordered eating, like, recognizing that, like you said, society validates, it encourages, it, prescribes it. And like so of course, it’s really hard to let go of that thing, and it feels in alignment with your values and who you think you want to be and what you think makes you worthy or good in the world. So it’s like really being gentle with yourself and understanding why it’s so hard to let go of that. And then on the flip side of the OCD, it’s like you might want to get rid of it, but you’re struggling so hard to know how to just stop thinking these thoughts that you don’t want to have. And so for a lot of people, like a trigger warning for for suicide, but like it can. It gets that bad because you’re so fearful of your own brain, and you’re in so much pain about thinking these things that you hate to be thinking that it’s like you’ll just, you just want to be out,

Summer:
yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes sense, absolutely, yeah. Well, it’s amazing that you found your way through that. Like, is it something that you feel like you still have to kind of watch for and manage, or do you feel like it’s something that is, you know, a chapter from the past and you’re in a different, like, you know, yeah, place now,

Abbie:
it feels like a chapter in the past, which is, like, such a good feeling, yeah, there’s no cure, right? Like, but, but, like, I would never, I wouldn’t fit into like, diagnostic criteria or anything, you know, I think that it’s definitely, I think, just like, anything in life that we go through, anything hard, we go through any mental health struggles we have, it’s like, yeah, you want to, I think it requires that we are aware of the fact that we’ve struggled with something in the past and that it could potentially return, you know, and so we can watch for those warning signs, but haven’t had them. And yeah, it does not take up any time, any mental energy, anything anymore for me at all. It’s funny. I don’t know if you relate to this summer, but like having a podcast has been proof of that for me. Because I think if I had a podcast while I was struggling with this like, any kind of comment or like review or like anything, would have just resulted in so much rumination and like, oh my gosh, it would have been impossible to do,

Summer:
yeah, like, yeah, absolutely for sure,

Abbie:
because you can get one, like negative thing and just like, it can drive you nuts.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, you’d have to be so careful with that for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that you mentioned was, like you were, you were a runner, like you were an athlete and so, and you were, you know, then using running to sort of manage your, you know, your obsessions and and whatnot. And so, like, a question that I have or that I’m curious about, because I see. This a lot with clients, is that, like, if they have a history where they were like an athlete, and then they are no longer like, I mean, everybody, I think, is still an athlete, right, but like, they’re no longer like that competitive athlete, like, because maybe it got disordered, or they had to make some change, and there’s like, this identity crisis that happens, like, where, because the being an athlete or being a runner was like so much a part of of their identity. And then now it’s maybe not. And so was that something that you experienced in your trajectory?

Abbie:
Oh, my God. So much like so so much so I was like a team sports athlete growing up, like high school and stuff, and into college. And then I found running in during college, when I started having panic attacks and, like, severe anxiety and everything. So I started really using it as a tool to cope. But then what happened is I found I had, like, never known that I had such a talent at it, and so I started, it started getting very competitive, and I ran for teams, and I, like, you know, had all these, like, people kind of, like professional athletes, like reinforcing it and being like, wow, you could really do something with this. And but all the while, as you said, it was getting really obsessive. So unfortunately, what happened for me is, like, after a few years, I mean, your body can’t sustain that if you’re under fueling and you’re experiencing an eating disorder and you’re not taking proper rest. And so I started getting a ton of injuries. So eventually I did have to stop. And it was definitely the most painful experience, one of the most painful experiences I’ve ever been through, not to mention it took away my primary coping tool, as we were, yeah, before. So it was, like, really destructive for a while. I would say that was, like, one of the, like, biggest like, reckoning points of my recovery was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I’ve only been surviving because I had this thing. And when you realize that, when you’re like, oh my god, I can’t survive if I don’t have this one thing, you realize how like, untethered you are to yourself and your life, like, if one thing gets taken away and you, like, don’t know what to do, that’s such a, I mean, it’s such a red flag, right?

Summer:
Yeah, yes. And I remember having a similar experience, yeah, really with with sports or with CrossFit, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I remember when my hormones, I don’t want to take away from your time here, but like, when my hormones were that of a postmenopausal woman, when I was, like, 30, and the doctor was like, Hey, you can’t do high intensity exercise for a while. Like, I remember being more upset about that than the fact that, like, my hormones were the same as a postmenopausal woman. Like, it was such a and that was, like, the wake up call. I was like, Wait a minute. Like, that’s a problem. You know,

Abbie:
was it an identity thing, like the for you to Was that why it was so scary?

Summer:
I think there was it identity thing of being sort of like the healthy one, quote, unquote, you know, like the the one that was like, because that was when I was, like, into, like, really hardcore, into, like, dieting and stuff as well. So, and then preaching it to everybody, and starting to build up, like, sort of a brand around that, and many years ago. So, so, yeah, so how do I mean, what’s your advice to someone who has that sort of identity crisis, or, like, how did, like, what helped you to to move through that? Because I think that that can be such a hard thing for people.

Abbie:
Yeah, I think this is, like, the crux of so much of this work, because it’s really about our self worth, right? Like, it’s about how we value ourselves. And like, if you only value yourself because you can do a certain thing, or if you only feel like the world values you because you can do a certain thing or or because you look a certain way, right? Then losing that which we absolutely will like, we will absolutely lose all of these things right, the ability to run the event like all of us, it’s a guarantee, then that’s a really precarious place to be with yourself. And I think reckoning with that and thinking about if there was something in your life, like whether it’s an athletic activity or whether it’s your body, what your body looks like, or whatever like, if that went away, who are you? Is like, I think what we all need to do and explore and understand that, like we are so much more than any one thing, and that without that thing, we still are us, like I am still me. I still like. I had to learn, like, people didn’t love me for that thing. But most of all, I had to as, like, cliche as it sounds like, I had to learn to love me without that thing, you know, like it was kind of this two part thing, like, Oh, my family doesn’t just value me and love me. And, you know, think about me in positive ways, because I’m a good runner, like, if that disappears, they still love me. Like we just tell ourselves these stories and unfortunately, like society reinforces it, and even things people say to us reinforce it, right? Like I was so complimented all the time on it, yeah, that’s the hard part. It can feel like that is why people value you. You. Know. And I think that’s why I always encourage people to work on, like, complimenting people for, like, who they are and not what they do, necessarily. Because I think we all have to learn that, you know, over and over and over, that like, you know, our body isn’t why somebody loves us, our sport isn’t why somebody loves us, but like, if we get complimented on those things all the time, it can certainly fucking feel that way, right? Like, yes, yeah. So that was one thing, but I had to find, I think, more practically, like, that’s the kind of mental and emotional work. I think more practically, I had to find other things to do, yeah, I really did, you know, so like getting into new activities, exploring kind of creative parts of myself that I haven’t had in a while, like painting and knitting and things that just allowed for more stillness and rest. Because I think a lot of what OCD and also I didn’t, we didn’t talk about this, but chronic illness and everything for me has been about, has been a lot about just distracting myself from my problems. And I have had such a fear and a like aversion to stillness my whole life. And so a lot of it for me was like, not necessarily healing my relationship with exercise. It was more like healing my relationship with rest, and like, making it okay to not do anything and like that. That didn’t take away from who I was, you know, right, right,

Summer:
yeah. And I imagine that would be so hard, because there probably a lot of uncomfortable feelings that come up around that in those, especially in that initial, you know, period of time when you’re starting to, when you lose your coping mechanism, and you have to kind of sit with, like, ah, what does this mean? Right? Right?

Abbie:
And especially if it’s something you genuinely love, like, I don’t know if I mentioned that, like I loved it, like it was also it was true that it was an unhealthy coping tool, and true that it was I was putting too much of my identity in it, but it was also true that I loved it so much, like genuinely loved it. And so I think we also just have to create space for grief, you know, like not doing the thing you love so much. I mean, my parents, I’d said they were, they were physicians. You know, watching my parents retire years ago, that was really hard on them, like, identity wise, right? Like, not being a surgeon anymore, right? Like, I kind of watched him go through that. And, like, I think we just have to make space to grieve those things totally. And, you know, allow ourselves to be like, God, that was a huge part of my life, a huge part of my where my time and energy went and a lot of value. I got a lot of value out of it, and like, there will be other things, and if I’m only relying on this one thing, then that’s not a full life. That’s not a healthy mindset. But it’s really hard if you genuinely like doing something and can’t do it anymore. And that’s been really hard. It is very hard still.

Summer:
Yeah, I can never imagine loving running. Ever. I admire people who do so do you? Do you still? Do you still run? Like do is that still? Is that part of your life now, or did you have to, like, was that it just you couldn’t do it anymore?

Abbie:
So it was it for a long time. I do sometimes now, but like, not much, and when I do, I’m just kind of really appreciative that I’m just kind of outside and like, feel like it. But I think my practice with moving my body now just looks a lot like, Okay. How do I feel today? What would feel good, what would feel kind what do I actually want to do? What do I have time for? What I have energy for and or it’s really okay to do a thing. You know, it’s funny. You said you can’t imagine running. I cannot. You know, what I hate is, I hate you couldn’t pay me to lift weights. I hate it.

Summer:
Oh, see, I love that. Funny.

Abbie:
I was betting that since you did like CrossFit and stuff, that maybe we were opposite in that way. Like, it’s so funny. I think getting in touch with what you genuinely like with that kind of stuff is so key, and not pushing yourself. I don’t know about you, but like, yeah, what would be the point in you forcing yourself to run right? Like you would hate it. And like, same, like, vice versa for me with weights, like, I just It’s okay. I’m like, okay, I can do other things to kind of, like, maintain, you know, strength as I get older. But like, it won’t be that.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s so interesting. I Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really true and like, I yeah, I just Yeah. Ever since I was a kid, I just, well, as I said to you before we started recording, I was like, I’m just not very good on land. I’m definitely, like, better in the water.

Abbie:
Wait, have you ever lifted weights in the water? What do you do with Can you do that?

Summer:
Well, no, but they have like, those, like little floating things that you can then pretend you’re lifting weights with no, no. I can do good on land with weight. I don’t know what it is. I think it’s just, like, it just comes a little bit more naturally to me. But like, anything that requires, like, me being out of breath, like, I just, like, immediately shut down.

Abbie:
That is still a funny summer. We’re the opposite, like, you put me in a pool and I look ridiculous. Like, I can’t, I can’t function. But, yeah, anything that’s like, endurance wise, it’s so genetic, like my parents were endurance athletes. Like, I can, I could. That forever and ever, and be like, not even bothered. You’re so amazed by it.

Summer:
I’m always like, wow. Like, how, because it’s just so not like, my body just does not do that like I just does never.

Abbie:
I mean, honestly, I relate to that so much because I feel that way about all the other things that I’m like, I cannot do that like, the like, you know, it’s just, it’s really funny. It’s amazing that you and I can talk about it in this way, like, so neutrally, because I think a lot of people struggle with that, with movement and exercise, right? Like, thinking they should do a certain thing and feeling like a failure if they can’t, like, if they get winded doing a certain thing, and it’s like, well, we all just are different.

Summer:
Yes, yeah, yeah. You really have to find the thing that like that you are happy to go and do, and that matches like what feels good for you too, yeah, and detaching that from what you eat is like, so crucial, and your earth and your self worth is huge.

Abbie:
Yeah. Again, it’s so praised in our society. Like exercise is so so praised, you’re seen as smart and and, you know, discipline, or in disciplined, you know, like all of these things that we it’s really like, anti fat bias is kind of underlying all of that, right? Like, just the, the really problematic narrative of, like, laziness and the willpower crap that’s out there, you know. So I think it’s a really hard thing to unlearn, but, like, it can be a really sneaky form of or like manifestation of disordered eating to like, maybe you start healing your relationship with food, but you’re kind of compensating with exercise, you know. And they really play off of one another. And I don’t think we talk about it enough, like how disordered and rigid and unhealthy exercise can become for people in all of this mess, you know,

Summer:
yeah, exactly, totally, yeah. And it’s hard to recover from, like, I find it’s it’s challenging for people to develop a new relationship with it when they’ve spent, you know, chunk of their lives, associating it with weight loss, with body change and whatnot. And so it is. It is a child like I struggled to do that myself, to really unhook it from that and take that out of it. And it’s interesting, because I’m probably in like, the best shape I’ve been in, like, compared to when I was in that, like, disordered state, and I was working out every single day for long periods of time. So it’s, yeah, it takes a lot of effort.

Abbie:
It does, and it just destroys our body, you know, like, we’re not gaining much from that. And I think, I don’t know about you, but I’m, I’m curious, was, was it like, I think, a hard thing for me too, that was even separate from the food stuff and the body image stuff with the exercise is, like it was such a part of my routine that, and I’m such a routine person, I mean, CC, OCD, perfectionism. OCD,

Summer:
yeah, totally.

Abbie:
I think that was really hard. It was like not doing it was just such a weird feeling for a long time, like to, like, wake up and not do that. Like my body kind of felt asleep, like it was just, you know, felt weird, and working through that was something that I had to do. What about you? Was that a weird thing when you had to calm down with the CrossFit to like,

Summer:
yeah, absolutely.

Abbie:
What do I do all the time?

Summer:
Yeah, I know I started doing, like, yoga and stuff and like, just like walking and whatever. But, yeah, no, it was annoying. Like I was annoyed, I was like, but I was really determined to like he, you know, to heal and to, you know, especially because my hormones were so messed up, so and I think for me, like, and maybe it was similar for you like, I really channeled it into then, like, the work that I do now. So it became like this catalyst. And so then I was able to make meaning out of it, which I think is, you know, a really helpful thing, like, if you can find some way to, you know, make meaning, whether that’s to be a better role model to somebody or to, you know, find new activities that you actually enjoy, like you mentioned, painting and all that stuff. So it makes it easier when you can not just look at it as like this detriment, but like, this thing that, like, Okay, well, it happened, and it was bad, and it is a struggle, but it’s allowing me to then do this instead,

Abbie:
yeah, and I’m like, I’m blanking on who wrote this book, but, you know, like, what’s the who wrote the book? Um, you know that that’s now, like, kind of talked about some making meaning is like the sixth stage of grief.

Summer:
Oh, so, okay, yeah. I mean, it is. It is kind of enmeshed in a lot of the grief models. But, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Abbie:
yeah. Like, it’s like this after it’s kind of acceptance, and then it’s like, if you can make meaning of something having happened, like, it’s a lot, it makes that acceptance, like that process of acceptance that, like we kind of keep going through, because I agree with you wholeheartedly, summer like, I think that is, I think that is what has helped me the most, is like being able to help other people and just being able to, like voice and like talk about this stuff, you know, I think we just all need more of that. Like. Just normalizing. I always tell, like, my clients, like, honestly, there is, like, nothing you could tell me that I probably haven’t thought myself like I have had the most wild thoughts, like the most wild experiences with all this shit, like, it is so hard and messy and shameful and oh, it’s such a it’s such a mess. But I think normalizing that like we’re all we’re all walking through that mess and like you’re not weird or broken for struggling with it is just helps so much. 100%

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And I think you know, thank you so much for sharing so much about your own personal experience today. I think it’s so helpful for people to hear that and feel less alone, and obviously that makes you, like, equipped to unders, like, have a lot of empathy for people’s challenges, whether they’re it’s because they have chronic illness or they struggle with mental health challenges or, you know, eating disorder or identity shifts or whatever it is. So that’s really great. Where can people find more of you? Abbie.

Abbie:
You can find me on my website. So that’s Abby Atwood wellness.com and then Instagram is where I kind of hang out on social media. I’m not cool enough to be on Tiktok. I can’t handle that. It’s just at Abbie Atwood wellness on Instagram. And then I have a newsletter, which you can sign up for on my website. And then my podcast, full plate podcast, which comes out on Mondays every Monday, so you can find me there every week too, and like my website is where there’s information on group programs and all that good stuff too.

Summer:
amazing. Thank you so much for being here. It was so great to finally have you as a guest on the show, and it’s been wonderful chatting with you.

Abbie:
Oh, I’m honored, summer. Thank you for having me.

Summer:
Rock on.

I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. You can find the links mentioned at summer innan.com, forward slash, 314, you might also want to check out the episode I did with Chris sandal. That’s where we talked about the Minnesota starvation experiment, as well as how eating disorders are really anxiety disorders, which I think really overlaps with the conversation that we had today. So if you are curious about hearing more on that topic, definitely check out episode 266 and I will link to that in the show notes for this episode as well. Thank you so much for being here. Rock on.

I’m Summer innanen, and I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer innanen, and if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts, search, eat the rules and subscribe, rate and review this show. I would be so grateful until next time rock on you.