We also talk about the problems with the eating disorder treatment industry and what’s helped her maintain recovery from a decade’s long eating disorder.

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Cole:
There is not even an agreed upon definition of recovery. So the most obvious I think common sense definition of recovery is no longer doing the behaviors, the binging the purging the extreme restriction and starving, right. So if you’re no longer doing those, you would be recovered, right. But there is not an agreed upon clinical definition of recovery. And I think the reason for that is because it’s not as simple as no longer doing the behaviors.

Summer:
This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image, self worth, anti dieting, and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen, a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance, with personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group. This is episode 284. And I’m with Cole Kazdin, author of the book What’s eating us women food and the epidemic of body anxiety. We’re talking about what recovery actually looks like and whether being fully recovered from an eating disorder even exists. We also talk about the problems with the eating disorder treatment industry and what’s helped her maintain recovery from a decade’s long eating disorder. You can find the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 284.

Let me give a shout out to Renata Pennsbury who left this review: best podcast ever. Summer really helped me improve the way I look at food and overall health. I’m far away from being an intuitive eater. But I always run to this podcast every time I feel my eating disorder talking to me, and it always helps me. Thank you. Thank you so much all the way from Brazil. I love it. And hopefully this episode helps you a little bit more because I think it is a great one. If you are still struggling with some eating disorder behaviors or thoughts, you can leave a review for the show that helps others find the information that you’re learning here. You can do that by going to Apple podcasts search for eat the rules, then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review or give it a rating. Don’t forget to grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com. Forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. And if you are a provider who works with people who may also have body image struggles, grab the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap. I’m really excited about this episode. I love the book that Cole wrote called What’s eating us women food and the epidemic of body anxiety. I will say I will put a content warning not so much on this episode. I don’t think she gets into the behaviors. But definitely on the book, she goes into detail some of the behaviors of her eating disorder. And so I will say that do whatever you need to do to take care of you. If you feel like that book might not be helpful for you at this point in time, then skip it. Otherwise, I think it’s a really great look at the field of eating disorder recovery. And what the research says as well as a really raw story of Cole’s personal recovery from an eating disorder poll. Kazdin is a writer, performer and four time Emmy award winning television journalist. Her work has been featured in The New York Times Los Angeles Times Los Angeles magazine, The Daily Beast, cosmopolitan NPR and more. Cole is a graduate of Northwestern University and Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism. She is the author of what’s eating us women food and the epidemic of body and anxiety. Let’s get started with the show.

Hello, Cole, welcome to the show.

Cole:
I’m so happy to be here Summer. Thank you so much for having me.

Summer:
Yeah, I’m super excited to have you here. I really enjoyed reading your book, what’s eating us women food and the epidemic of body anxiety. I just thought it was such a good blend of research as well as sharing your own story which was really really raw and vulnerable and and I think really speaks to how difficult recovery is from an eating disorder, I would love for you to start by just telling everyone what inspired you to write the book.

Cole:
Well, I was several years out of my eating disorder recovery, and I was doing okay, like 70% better. And I thought that might be the best I could do. And I wondered if there was something maybe wrong with me or something where the treatment didn’t stick. And so instead of approaching it as a patient, I just started doing some research as a journalist. And I started discovering that not only was my experience of going through treatment, and not feeling totally better, not unique, it was the norm. And to go further, that I was one of the lucky ones that I had even gotten treatment, or even diagnosed in the first place. I started talking to other women, I started hearing their stories. And I decided that I wanted to go deeper, that I wanted to go deeper, not only for my own recovery, to see if I could do any better, and get those thoughts that were always in my head constantly, constantly, constantly out. But could I learn something as a journalist that other people could access so that maybe they could start a few steps ahead of where I was that they could have information that I could do the vetting. And I think it’s so important to share a personal story when we talk about this and not have it just be journalism, because I felt very alone, when I had an eating disorder, even though there are so many of us, like so many of us. And if someone could feel like, oh, I felt the way she felt or my experience is different, but I can relate to this part of it. That would just be the greatest thing I could do. So that’s what I was setting out to do to just get a roadmap to recovery, and maybe make someone else feel less alone.

Summer:
Yeah. And so you mentioned there like being like 70% recovered, and that that being sort of like one of the lucky ones like, were you surprised by that, that like that?

Cole:
That’s sort of considered good, just like, what was your reaction when you started to learn more about that? I mean, I remember when I was when I first got out of treatment, and I wasn’t, I was feeling I was so optimistic. I was like, I did this, I paid so much money, that wasn’t covered by insurance to get better. I did all the stuff, I did everything I was told to do to recover and I got a lot better, I got a lot better. And then when you dig into the numbers that relapse rates are 40 to 70%, that a lot of treatment just doesn’t work at all for people. I thought, What the fuck did I pay all that money for? Like, I’m glad I didn’t know those things ahead of time. And I don’t want anyone to not have hope, because there is a lot of hope. There’s a lot of hope, I promise, I promise. And no one was more cynical and disbelieving about that than I was. But it’s shocking to me that for an epidemic that kills so many people every 52 minutes someone dies is a direct result of their eating disorder, that there’s no standard of care, there’s no cure, there’s no guarantee, they’re still catching up, the research is still catching up. And I found that shocking and appalling.

Summer:
Yeah, and you are privileged, like you, I mean, you talked about that in the book, how you come from, like, a place of privilege, both with being you know, like white and in a smaller body. And, you know, like, middle class or whatever. And you’re one of the lucky ones. So it’s like, you know, when you think about people with, you know, marginalized identities and multiple marginalized identities, it’s like, Is there hope in that space as well, like, or? Yeah, what did you sort of discover when you looked into that?

Cole:
There absolutely is, and I will, I will just add to the privilege card for full transparency, I was living in New York City at the time. So I was in a metropolitan area with a million providers, right, I was not living in a rural area that maybe doesn’t have any clinical, you know, any clinicians in the entire area, which happens. I had a steady job, a home and credit, because a lot of this stuff is not covered by insurance. So you’re going into debt over it if you don’t have a lot of money right there. But I was able to put things on a credit card, I was able to access a practitioner. So the privilege was a lot for someone who then didn’t feel recovered. But you’re absolutely right. Most people may never even get diagnosed for having an eating disorder, right. And eating disorders. There’s an association with people who experienced food scarcity, and eating disorders are so people who really don’t have the money to get food on the table, and they are experiencing eating disorders. indigenous populations are experiencing eating disorders and just not getting diagnosed, much less treated. So number one, I think what’s happening that I’m seeing more and more is grassroots organizations and at disorder survivors are getting out there and saying, Hey, this system is not working. The system that is usually used to treat white people who have privilege is not working for the rest of us. And those people are doing incredible work. And so much is online now that you can be in Kansas and attend an online support group, out of Seattle or out of LA. And so that connection, I think, is so, so valuable. I think online mental health has a lot of problems and lack of regulation. But grassroots online mental health for people in marginalized communities can sometimes be a lifeline. Hmm, yeah. And I guess the hope would be that that continues to, like, expand and become more prevalent, hopefully, although I know there are certain major eating disorder organizations that have caused a lot of harm.

Summer:
So yes, yeah. So you mentioned like you I mean, and like, it’s one of the titles of the parts of your book, where you say, like standard of care, like, just kidding, there isn’t one like, what is the standard of care supposed to be first of all? And like, what did you find when you started to look into that as it relates to eating disorders?

Cole:
Right, so the most broad analogy that even take it away from eating disorders is if you break your leg and go to the emergency room, and the doctor that you see sings a song, they have not performed the standard of care for a broken leg, right, you have to X ray it, you have to set it there. And most illnesses that we are seeing many, most, there’s a standard of care, there’s a standard of care for diabetes, there’s a standard of care for depression, there’s a standard of care for mental and physical illnesses, there is not a standard of care for eating disorders. And if you go to a treatment center that does have you sing songs, and that’s your only treatment, you don’t really have legal recourse because there’s no standard of care. So there are certain therapies that have been studied more than others, and show to have very good outcomes for teens and kids. Family based treatment really has great outcomes. For adults, cognitive behavioral therapy is usually used and dialectical behavioral therapy have good results, they’re still not, you know, about 50% of the people. And By most estimates, I found in my research, just don’t get better from those treatments. But that’s actually a great percentage for care. So there are other countries like in the United Kingdom practitioner cannot offer something that has not have some science and evidence behind it. So in the UK for an eating disorder, if you go, and they sing a song, I love music. I don’t know how I’m getting so deep into this analogy of singing a song, which may be good for your mental health anyway. But if you go to the UK, that provider is not permitted to offer treatment that does not have some evidence base around it. But in the US, it’s kind of do whatever you want, huh, wow. Yeah, it was interesting to hear, like how different countries approach and different some of the different treatment options and like 50% just seems so so low.

Summer:
So like, Is there even like, is there sort of like a myth around like recovery? Like, because you talk about you see, sort of, you know, in like online spaces, are people talking about it? And they’re like, I’m recovered, I recovered from my eating disorder, like, is that such a thing? Or is it one of those things that you sort of have to carry with you and be cognizant of like, what’s I mean, I’m sure it’s different for everybody. But what did you find?

Cole:
Yeah, I mean, it’s such an important question to ask because there is not even an agreed upon definition of recovery. So the most obvious, I think common sense definition of recovery is no longer doing the behaviors, the binging the purging the extreme restriction and starving, right. So if you’re no longer doing those, you would be recovered. Right. But there is not an agreed upon clinical definition of recovery. And I think the reason for that is because it’s not as simple as no longer doing the behaviors, no longer doing the behaviors. If you’re able to stop the behaviors. That’s a huge step, right? But it doesn’t really allow for any nuance. There’s a lot of relapse and eating disorders. That’s very, very common. It’s unfortunately very normal. It happens all the time. I experienced relapse feels like such a huge failure. It happens. There are psychological, there are the thoughts there are the being consumed with weight or food, things that are also kind of normal, unfortunately, in our culture. I mean, I just went to a birthday party for my kids preschool class and there was a mother there who said, I have been waiting all week for this piece of cake. Now, does she have an eating disorder or not? I don’t know her I don’t know. But it is very normal to say something like that. out or else, she wouldn’t have said it. So you’re sending someone back out of the world, even if they have gotten treatment into this very, very disordered culture. And so you come out into the world, and you feel a little strong. And then you think, Oh, but I haven’t exercised today. Oh, but I have that dinner tomorrow night. What did I eat yesterday? That is not great. That’s not great. So, you know, my personal definition that is not a diagnostic definition is yeah, the behaviors are to have stopped, but you no longer have those thoughts of that you’re trying to fix something, you know, we talk about the word acceptance, which I think we use so much, it has lost a lot of meaning. But it’s saying, Okay, this is who I am, this is what my body is, I have to eat, and carry on, instead of all the time and mental real estate that we allot to wanting to change our bodies or doing extreme things, to, to change our bodies. And I want to quantify that, because that is my personal definition. And really just my personal definition, because for many people, the idea of sort of a black and white recovery isn’t something that helps them that they might be practicing a form of harm reduction, like, you know, look, my eating disorder is helping me cope with trauma right now, I’d like to not harm myself, what are little steps I can take, and that’s sort of binary, you’re healthy, you’re not healthy, you’re recovered, you’re not recovered, is actually causing more stress. And so you have to sort of slow down the healing and approach them as an individual. So I think if someone has peace with food, peace with body peace with their exercise, that, you know, does look like recovery. But a lot of people talk about recovery without getting specific. And I know I’m getting so nitty gritty here. But I think we have to because we sort of take the word for granted.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. I think I work with a lot of people who are kind of in that space, like they don’t I because I don’t work specifically with people with eating disorders. But I do work with a lot of people who had an eating disorder, like maybe it was like a year ago or five years ago. But they’re still plagued with these like chronic negative thoughts about their body. And like, that’s where I come in and help them and I’ve always just been really curious about that, because it doesn’t seem to be something that’s necessarily addressed directly. Maybe it is, to some extent, I’m sure it is, to some extent, but in that eating disorder recovery process, it’s more focused around like you said, the behaviors. And obviously, the thoughts take a lot of time to, you know, there’s a lot of work that goes into kind of, you know, really detaching from those thoughts and working through them. And obviously, there’s so many factors like trauma and everything else that can cause you to have those thoughts.

Cole:
Something that was so I think, pivotal for me, in my own recovery. I talked about this a lot in the book, you know, for me, getting more information is very helpful. And it might not sink in right away. But just knowing getting some facts and figures, learning for me about the money that the weight loss industry has the messaging how far it goes back how intertwined it is with with our entire history, for me discovering that that inner voice, that inner voice that is that just that Oh, my God, that inner voice, we all have version of it, that it’s not some sort of inner truth, that it’s actually not my voice at all. Like maybe other people know this. That was radical. For me, that was radical for me. And there was a woman I interviewed who actually named her inner voice, Dolores, and when she would hear that voice, like, Oh, you look terrible, whatever that mean voice, she would say Shut the fuck up Dolores and she would have these conversations with Dolores. If we take it even a step further that that voice has been we were born into it. It might be a family member’s voice, it might be something we have, you know, we’ve heard regularly. It’s also this nefarious weight loss industry voice that wants our money and reminding myself of that has saved me so many times. It has saved me so many times, because I can cut it off at the pass. And I have to it takes practice. But I’m fast at it. Now. I didn’t used to be but like, a year ago, two years ago, when I was researching the book and writing the book, and domesticating weight loss companies now that voice just doesn’t even get a second. It doesn’t even get a second because it’s not mine. Like get out of here. I need my money.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, totally. I think it’s super helpful to see it as like, you know, the voice that echoes the systems of oppression, like whether it’s like, you know, anti fat bias, which is obviously the weight loss industry, which is tied up in anti blackness and like all of those things, and ageism and everything else, like it’s so helpful to see like, where these, you know, like where those voices were formed. And obviously, they’re formed through your own experiences with people to but they’re coming from a point, you know, these systems that are doing harm to us as well as others and yeah, I think like seeing it that way is always extreme. Be helpful because it makes it so much easier to reject that direction that they’re giving you like, it’s like, if that voice is saying, like, Oh, you have to, you know, exercise for an hour. It’s like, Where’s that coming from? Who profits off of that, like who’s benefiting from that? Like, for me, I’ve always been a rebel. So it was super helpful for me to be like, well, like, you know, fuck you, I’m not gonna listen to that voice. Right?

Cole:
And it take, they’re so ingrained, it takes so much time. I mean, there was a therapist, I spent a lot of time talking to you for the book. And we talked a lot about exercise compulsion, and I was like, can we just like, agree that I’m just going to be a little crazy about exercise. And that’s just the way I am. And I will accept that. And let’s talk about something else. And of course, I know that that is not the end of that conversation. And she knows that that is not the end of that conversation. So where does that idea come from? Like a watch, you know, telling me how many calories you should burn? It’s like, it’s all so made up?

Summer:
Yeah. 100%? Totally? Well, one of the things that I wanted to talk about with you is that you mention, one of the things that you say in your book, you say the more I learned about the for profit eating disorder treatment landscape, the more it seems to have in common with the diet industry, selling a product that doesn’t work, keep people coming back for more, I would love to hear you talk about that.

Cole:
Well, you know, I think with the eating disorder industry is so tricky, because there’s so many really well meaning, I want to start with that. Not only well meaning but clinicians that they really want to help people, you know, they really, really, really want to help people. And if you are an eating disorder, clinician or researcher, you are someone who knows how bleak it can be how so many people don’t get better, you know, I want to really, I want to say that first, because to be an eating disorder clinician is a is a rare breed of person, because these disorders are so difficult to heal. So I will leave it that. That’s it. So many residential treatment centers are for profit, and there’s so much money to be made. I did not study so I can’t speak on whether they set out to get repeat customers. I mean, that would be horrific. We know that the diet industry, so much research on the diet industry shows us that most customers are repeat customers. So if the product worked, they would have to go a different way. Right. So people tend to blame themselves when they gain weight. And they credited a diet when they lose weight. So what a brilliant business plan that is. So for eating disorder treatment, I hope they’re not setting out to do that. But you know how desperate people are. And you know how desperate parents are when they have a child or people are who want to get help themselves adults. So you see a lot of treatment centers that promise results, just like weight loss companies promise results that aren’t true promise results, like you’ll get better one, one of the top eating disorder researchers in the country at the University of California, San Diego. So that’s the biggest red flag for an eating disorder treatment center. And I think that is such a great piece of information to give people who are seeking treatment, it’s if they promise that you’ll get better if they over promise success. If they have their own research, as opposed to actual research. Like if on their website, they say 87% of people who come through our doors are fully recovered. That is a red flag, because being fully recovered, isn’t defined. And I’m believing you 87%. So they are you know, I want to believe that they’re well meaning because I don’t have evidence to the contrary, but they are making a lot of money off of their treatment. It’s for profit, and it’s not regulated.

Summer:
Wow, that’s so interesting. Is it like that around the world to or did you find it was different in other countries? Just sort of curiosity?

Cole:
Well, capitalism changes the way we do health care. Yeah. So if you have health care that’s provided by the state, you’re in a different situation. So one example I give in the book is in Sweden, which is a country that takes eating disorders more seriously than we do. I think about this all the time. There’s a researcher in the United States who splits her time she’s in Sweden, and here and in Sweden, there’s a an inpatient unit that keeps two beds free, empty at all times for someone who might be on the verge of a relapse or is having a rough time. And you can call and say, you know, most of the patients are known to the people on the unit because they might have gone through their doors at some time. And we know that relapse is very common with eating disorders. So you can call and say, my dog just died. I’m having a really, really rough time. I think I need to check myself in and they will say come on down. They will, you know, you’ll go to you’ll have a bed and you’ll be monitored and no one’s going to try to push food on you or not food and you’d kind of do what you’re there to be around people who can help you and most people stay for a couple of days and then go back home. And it has reduced the amount of emergency room visits for eating disorders. It’s really powerful to know that you can get treated, that you’re going to get treated by people who know a little bit what they’re doing, and it’s not going to cost you any money. So once you add capitalism into the mix with health care,

Summer:
yeah, wow, amazing. I think Sweden does a lot of things. Right.

Cole:
Right. Once you put capitalism in the mix, it just changes everything.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I want to spend the last chunk of time just talking a little bit about your recovery, because I think that people can learn a lot. I think a lot of people that listen to this show are definitely still kind of in a not messy place, whether they are still, you know, struggling with eating disorder behaviors, or at least a lot of the thoughts that kind of come after the behaviors that are still there after the behaviors have stopped. So what was the hardest part about recovery for you?

Cole:
God, it’s just, it’s all so hard. So at the beginning, it was hard for me to eat, because I was so afraid of eating, I was just so afraid of it, and that I might gain weight, which I my body needed to do, and how horrible that would be. I mean, the thoughts are, they’re harmful thoughts. But that was at the beginning, that was really hard. And of course, before that, I just didn’t get treatment for over a decade. And it was on and off for so much of my life in one iteration or another. But it was really difficult to start going along with the program at the beginning. And then what I think the next phase of difficulty was years and years and years and years later, where you know, so much of treatment, you’re told to not listen to your instincts as is appropriate. Because I was not I did not want to eat, I did not want to do any of the things. But there was never a point in my experience where, okay, now you’re gonna start making decisions about what you eat, how you exercise, what you do, there was never a real handoff to me, it was just kind of like, keep on keepin on with this. And so I doubted myself all the time. Like one of the things you’re supposed to do out of treatment is weigh yourself once a week. And I did that, again, I want it to be an A plus eating disorder grad. That’s not good. That’s not good. For me. It took me a very long time to see that that is not helpful. And so things like that, and just kind of arriving at particular things. And again, so much I learned in my research in the book, like I don’t know if I can do intuitive eating because I’m not sure if my brain works that way. So I need to do timers and alarms for when to eat. Sometimes I’m hungry, sometimes it’s dinnertime. So we eat have a family. But there are times throughout the day where if I hear an alarm at you know, 1pm and I kind of look at my watch, and I haven’t eaten, and I’m not really hungry. I know now from my research that that may be how my brain works. I’m not registering hunger, and I need to eat something anyway. And I know that okay, great. Now we’re going to eat something because if I don’t, I will have even fewer hunger cues. And I’m not going to be super fun to be around. And I would like to do my best for my family to be super fun to be around, or at least marginal fun.

Summe:
Yeah. Wow. I think that’s super helpful for people to hear. Because obviously, like Intuitive Eating is sort of a standard when it comes to healing from, you know, disordered eating. And it’s really interesting to hear, like you don’t feel hunger cues. Is that because of so many years of an eating disorder, or is that like something else?

Cole:
it’s such a chicken egg thing. And I don’t even know, I mean, I talked to a couple of these therapists about it, who do this brain work. And there are definitely people who have brain Miss firings where hunger is not registering. And sometimes I feel hungry. And sometimes those cues come back. But for many people, if you go, I learned in my research, if you go for three to four hours without eating, some people just will then not be hungry for a very long time. The normal response is at that point, your body’s like, we gotta get some food, we gotta get some food, we gotta get some food. That’s the normal human response. Your brain is like, you got to feed yourself. That’s not what happens for a lot of people. So when I was a little kid, you know, I talked to my parents about this before any eating disorder, anything. If I didn’t eat by whatever circumstance, I would cry, I wouldn’t be more anxious. I would be upset. That’s a, you know, pretty normal response. But it wasn’t hunger.

Summer:
Yeah. Interesting. So part of it was there, but it also predispose you probably to being like having an eating disorder. Totally. Yeah.

Cole:
I think so. Yeah.

Summer:
So what are some of the things that really help you stay? I don’t wanna say recovered. But, you know, like, in a place where you are, I guess, you know, navigating the thoughts or not engaging in those behaviors anymore, like what’s helped you maintain recovery?

Cole:
A couple things. One, just constantly reminding myself of the information that this is not my fault, and that I’m not alone. Those two those are two big things for me. It’s not my fault. I hadn’t an eating disorder is something I did wrong. And that I’m not alone. And I think the community piece of it is really, really important when it comes to sustaining whatever you call recovery, right? Because it’s a very individual thing. That is something that no one ever recommended to me, that I discovered through researching in the book. And it doesn’t have to be like an eating disorder support group. You know, for me, one of my first tastes of body positive, I’ll say body positive, because that term has now become something else. So my first taste of a supportive community that had anti diet values, was doing roller derby for a little while.

Summer:
Yeah, I’ve heard that can be super feminist oriented.

Cole:
And it wasn’t necessarily that people were anti diet, but they were because we just didn’t talk about that shit. Like, I’ve never been around a group of people where that was just never discussed. And we talked about other things. And there’s so much else to talk about, right? So community can be one person, it can be a partner, best friend, clergy family member, it can be three friends, you go to lunch with once a month, it can be whatever is best for you and your life. Because I think sometimes we hear about community, we’re like, oh, I need to find a perfect support group. That’s not you know, it doesn’t have to be that. But if you can get some of those values and those conversations and question things together, that can really sustain our health.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that comes through a lot in the book, you talk about the importance of community, but I really like how you defined it there that it doesn’t have to be like, a specific support group of people. You know, it’s just like actually just having people that kind of have shared values, even if it’s just like one or two people. Yeah.

Cole:
absolutely.

Summer:
Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here today. Where can people find more of you call?

Cole:
I’m on Instagram at my name Cole Kazdin. And I website, also my name Cole kazdin.com.

Summer:
Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you being here. I loved reading your book, there’s so much more to your story that we obviously didn’t get into people can check it out in the book, as well as just the whole landscape of eating disorders and different treatments and healing and things like that. So you can check out what’s eating us women food, and the epidemic of body anxiety wherever books are sold. I’ll link to it in the show notes for this episode. And I really appreciate you being here today. Rock on.

Hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. You can find the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 284 Thank you so much for being here today. I will talk to you next time rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.