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Summer:
This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting and intersectional feminism. I am your host. Summer innan, a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence, and the best selling author of body image remix, if you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 318 and I’m joined by Vincci Choi, registered dietitian and certified Intuitive Eating counselor. We’re talking about Vinci’s experience working in Bariatrics and what brought her to the anti diet space, as well as her predictions for what will happen with the rise of weight loss drugs. We also talk about cultural sensitivity in nutrition spaces, and whether we can trust nutrition evidence. You can find the links mentioned at summer Inn and in.com forward, slash, 318,

I want to give a shout out to Candace, who left this review. I’ve been wanting to write a review for a while now, but struggled to put into words how much I appreciate summers podcast. She perfectly phrases every idea in a way that’s not only understandable, but so very relatable, I feel like she’s speaking directly to me. I can’t quite put into words how much her podcast means to me and how often I seek refuge in her words. I can’t recommend this podcast enough. It’s life changing when you not only no longer feel alone in the struggle, but also get access to the strategies that make life happiness seem closer than you imagined. Thank you, summer, you are incredible. Thank you so much. Wow. I’m just gonna read that every night before I go to bed. That makes me feel really good. I had a bad day yesterday where I felt like nobody appreciated me, and so this, this really means a lot. Gonna hang on to this one. Thank you, Candace, you can support the show via my ko fi account, Kofi.com forward slash summer Innanen and that will always be linked in the episode information as well as in the show notes, and that will allow you to make a monthly contribution to the show for as little as $5 every month, You can help to keep this show on the air for another season, and you’ll also get access to my mini course conquering negative body talk. I appreciate everyone who has sponsored the show, even if it was just for $5 one time, it really helps and means a lot to me. You can also help the show by leaving a review or subscribing to the show, wherever you listen to podcasts, and I will always have free resources for you. You can get the free 10 day body confidence makeover with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. Or if you’re professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles, you can get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innan.com, forward slash roadmap, you can find everything at the body image coach.com

I am looking forward to chatting with today’s guest. We’ve been on each other’s radar for a few years now and never actually had a conversation in person, so I was super excited to finally set this up. Pinchy Choi is a registered dietitian and certified Intuitive Eating counselor with over 15 years of experience based in the motzi gutsi, which is spa or what is colonially known as Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Vinci is the founder of weight inclusive dietitians in Canada and author of the mindful eating workbook, simple practices for nurturing a positive relationship with food. Vinci takes a collaborative, compassionate and inclusive approach to nutrition care that is person centered and informed by anti oppression, social justice, Health at Every Size, intuitive eating, mindful eating, motivational interviewing and trauma, informed care concepts. Through her work, she hopes to contribute to a world where everyone has equitable access to the resources necessary to honor their physical, mental, emotional, social and cultural needs. Let’s get started with the show.

Hi, Vincci. Welcome to the show.

Vincci:
Thank you so much, so much for having me.

Summer:
Yeah, thank you for being here. Fellow Canadian, always nice to have some Canadian representation on the podcast, why don’t you tell everyone just a little bit about how you got into this work, like, what was your relation? Did you have kind of a strained relationship with food or and your body that brought you to this work, or what brought you to the work that you do now?

Vincci:
Yeah, so I guess I would say my path is a little different from a lot of people. I would say I’ve had a relatively like, good or neutral relationship with food and body throughout my whole life, and I think that’s partly, mostly because I have been protected by thin privilege and. Lot of ways. I mean, I have anxieties in other areas of my life. Don’t worry like but food and body was not kind of where they showed up. And so how did I get into this work? I was just reflecting on this not too long ago. So my husband and I, my husband has family in in BC we, we live in Calgary, and Alberta just a province over for those of you who are not familiar with Canadian geography, and so we would go on these, like, eight or nine hour long drives, like to visit his family, and we would listen to podcasts. And normally we would be listening to, like, foodie podcasts a lot of the time. But this was back in Fall 2016 you know, I decided to like Google, or, I guess, podcast search, like podcasts that were hosted by a dietitians. And I found the food psych podcast with Christy Harrison, and at that time, I think she had just done an interview with Evelyn Triple E, the co author of intuitive eating. And Evelyn had actually come to I had actually seen her speak in person in Edmonton, and read intuitive eating. And even then, like, again, like, it probably has to do with my thin privilege and my relationship with food. I read all of intuitive eating. I loved it. I had, like, all these tabs throughout the book. It did not read to me, like and like a weight inclusive or book. And so as I was listening to that interview, they were talking about how weight loss was not compatible with body positivity. And I was like, what like I thought I was, you know, helping people feel positive about their body I, you know, always thought, at the time, thought that anti diet meant anti fad diet. And as a dietitian, like, I wasn’t putting people on fad diets, I was just teaching them how to eat healthy. And so it kind of got me so, I think, like, kind of hearing that interview kind of got me down a rabbit hole of, you know, I think the first, I think I posted to a few dietician Facebook groups at the time and was like, you know, can you be body positive and still want to lose weight. And at the time, there are a lot of people who are like, well, yes, of course, like, you can be body positive and still want to improve your body. And I was like, well, is weight loss like, always an improvement? Or, you know, you have to love your body in order like to be able to lose weight? I think were some of the answers. And I was still like, Oh, that’s not right. And it was like, it was the few kind of nos that were in there that, like, got me to dig a little further. And, yeah, I think it was just being curious about this and not and I think feeling like I didn’t want to be causing harm that kind of led me to this work, because at the time, I was actually working at a bariatric surgery clinic, and so people would think, well, that’s like a complete 180 to do that. But it’s interesting, because I think, like the way that, you know, the obesity sort of organizations have co opted the concept of weight stigma, and like talking about weight stigma. So it kind of already planted that seed, that weight stigma is a problem. And I think it was kind of learning more about body positivity, Health at Every Size that got me to be like, okay, like it’s in these organizations, are, you know, talking about weight stigma, which is great, but they’re still perpetuating weight stigma at the same time. And, yeah, and that kind of led me to where I am today, kind of the short version, short,

Summer:
yeah, well, that must have been, like, a really weird moment then, because, if you’re working in Bariatrics, and then you start to, like, have these moments of, like, wait a minute, like, this is not this is like, incongruent to, you know, my my values are, like, I’m seeing that this is potentially causing harm. Like, I guess I’m just curious, like, did you like, phase out? Did you just, like, get out? Like, how did you make that transition? I’m just so curious about that because I was also like, a nutritionist who was focused on on weight loss, and so it was like this, like, Oh, crap. Like, what have I been doing?

Vincci:
Yeah, well, I think in some way, like, so I did, probably after kind of like that initial like, learning about body positivity and Health at Every Size, I think I still stayed on at that bariatric surgery clinic for about two years after that, and sort of in that time, I think, you know, I, I tried to do both in that what was not, what was nice about our clinic, in a sense, was that we didn’t like set Weight Loss. Goals for patients. Like, we didn’t say, okay, like, or one of the things that’s common in a lot of bariatric surgery clinics is they actually make you lose a certain amount of weight before you can even get the surgery. And so, like, one of the good things about our clinic was we didn’t have have, like, a pre surgery weight law school for people, so weight wasn’t necessarily a focus. And I think this, again, speaks to how the obesity organizations are co opting the idea of weight stigma is because, yeah, like, they will say things that, like, BMI is trash, or, you know, it’s it’s about health. Like, they kind of frame higher weight as like, a quote, unquote chronic disease. So they talk about, we’re trying to, you know, manage your health and not like your weight. So we didn’t, like really focus on the number. And then I think in my role, in itself, it was seeing people before and after surgery. So I almost thought of myself as a surgical as more of a surgical dietitian, because I did used to work in upper GI surgery in acute care, before working in bariatric surgery. So then it was like, Okay, well, my job as a dietitian is to is to help you, kind of, before the surgery, make sure that you’re going into the surgery well nourished, and then, you know, after the surgery, it’s to make sure that you’re coming out like, still as nourished as you can given sort of like the like, I guess, restrictions that you know the surgery itself can cause, like with your eating. So I think that’s how I kind of tried to frame the work that I did. I mean, I eventually did leave the clinic for many reasons, like, including, yeah, just kind of feeling like, just, I think being there was still, you know, in a sense, being supportive of, like, that weight centric approach.

Summer:
And, yeah, yeah. So you have this really unique perspective, because you worked in in Bariatrics, and I and I’m wondering, like, is there something that I’m sure there’s a lot that you’ve you know, that you that you’re knowledgeable about and familiar with, but like, are there, like, some things that you wish people knew who were considering taking that that route?

Vincci:
Hmm, yeah, hmm. I’m like, they’re like, Where do I even begin? I mean, it’s, it’s such a it’s such a tough thing. Because I think in a lot of ways, yeah, like, I think one of the conversations that has kind of happened in I think weight inclusive spaces is, yeah, like we do wish that there were more weight inclusive, I guess dietitians in these bariatric surgery spaces, because I think we do offer that different perspective that you don’t necessarily get like from the clinic. I think one thing that can be very harmful is that most, if not all, like bariatric surgery centers, like, they often have their own, like patient support groups, if there aren’t there, like, there are so many forums online or Reddit groups or Facebook groups, and they are so specific that, like, they can be divided down to, you know, the month that You had your surgery, and like, everybody’s in these groups talking about, you know, like, what are my goal weights? And, you know, what are the diets that I’m trying to do to, you know, maximize the surgery and make the surgery work for me. And it’s like, yeah, a very harmful environment. And I think what’s tough too, is that a lot of times, like people who have had bariatric surgery like you know, obviously don’t feel comfortable in weight inclusive Health at Every Size spaces. I think the conversations are more nuanced now, but at one point, like you know, and I think we still have this discourse that you know, that bariatric surgery is like stomach amputation is, you know, a lot of ways that you call and so there’s, like, such a strong reaction to it that, you know, even if someone has had surgery and they are, you know, wanting to, yeah, kind of enter, like, wanting a different approach to health, kind of our weight, inclusive spaces are not always welcoming to that. And, yeah, and I think, I think that’s one piece of it, and I think there are, like, so many other pieces for, like, people who are considering surgery, like the risks and and I think there’s so much hope going into the surgery that, you know, even though we talk about the risks, we talk about how, like, it’s a very high percentage of people who will experience, say, like, weight regain, or whatever it might be. But you know, there’s so much hope that, like, even. And if we say, like, I don’t know the statistics off of the top of my head, but if we say, like, one in four, one in five will experience like XYZ kind of complication, people don’t think it’s going to be them. Yeah, and I think that’s that’s hard too. Is that, like, sometimes, like, even though we try to give as much informed consent as we can of the risks, you know, like there’s so much hope. And for a lot of people, like bariatric surgery, or even the GLP ones, they kind of feel like a last resort. And it’s like, and, you know, people think, oh, it couldn’t be me, or I need to do everything I can in order to get the most out of the surgery, which leads to more restriction and restrictive behaviors above, like the restriction that the surgery is already giving them,

Summer:
yeah, and I think it just speaks to like, the the, you know, the crushing weight of weight stigma in our culture that people are willing to, you know, accept these pretty significant risks in order for in order to, potentially, you know, feel safer in their body and feel more comfortable. And so I think it’s, it’s like, again, it’s like, not an individual issue. It’s like, it’s really because of our culture, that people go into it with that sense of hope, because they’re just looking for a way to escape existing in a world where they’re treated so poorly. So I totally understand that. You also so because you have this unique perspective, you must sort of be watching everything that’s happening with these weight loss medications like the GLP ones, and perhaps seeing some parallels, like, I’m just wondering, what do you foresee happening in the future with the rise of these weight loss medications?

Vincci:
Ah, like, it’s It’s so wild. How like quickly these weight loss medications are developing. I’ve been sort of looking at even the studies on semaglutide, which is like ozempic and wegovy. And right now they have a trial going on where they’re looking at giving people three times the dose of wagovi. So we go via, is already high dose? Like, it’s 2.4 milligrams a week. Now they’re look, there’s, right now, two trials going on that are looking at giving people 7.2 milligrams a week to see, like, what it’s going to do. And then there’s so many different medications that are taking, oh, like we have the GLP one. What happens if we combine that with, you know, other, like, I think, I don’t, I don’t even know the names off the top of my head, but, like, what happens when we combine them with other, you know, similar hormones. And, like, yeah. And so there’s just all these medications that are under development and, and, you know, like you, you’ve probably seen those headlines where it’s like, oh, like, Is this the end of, like, body positivity or whatever, and it seems, you know, and like, it’s funny because, like, we’re kind of rolling our eyes, like, of course not. Like, you know, we need it now more than ever. But I was recently in conversation with someone who, like it almost felt like they, they believed that they were like, you know, like, are these medications? Like, how is it affecting, like, your ability to, you know, do, like, weight, inclusive, care, or whatever. And I was kind of like, we, right now, we’re, we’re needing it more than ever. Because, you know, like, these are not the miracle drugs that people claim them to be like, even based on what we know with wagovi Like, or ozempic Like, even for people who are able to lose weight, you need to stay on it like to, you know, continue to maintain that weight loss. We know that a lot of insurance companies or whatever are not covering it. So it can be so it can get quite expensive. It’s not very accessible. And I think with any weight loss method, it doesn’t, you know, for someone who is already in a larger body. It doesn’t necessarily make them skinny, quote, unquote, like it might make them be in a less, larger body, but that still doesn’t erase the, you know, weight stigma that they experience. And in fact, I think you know weight stigma has the potential to intensify, because now it’s like, well, we have these medications that can, you know, make you thin, like, and they don’t even necessarily do that for everyone. And it’s like, you know, why aren’t you on it kind of thing. So, yeah, like, I, I mean, I guess, like, my main hope is that. We don’t kind of see these, like, you know, health side, like the long term major side effects, like we did with Fen fan, or some of the other weight loss drugs from, you know, yesteryear, because, like, but I think, you know, even without that, like some of the social issues and issues with stigma, I don’t think it’s the end for body acceptance. And in fact, like, I think, you know, kind of the need for it is higher, but in so many, I think, different contexts, it’s not as straightforward as like, accept your body, even though it’s never, it’s never been that way. But I think, like, there’s a greater need for, like, I guess, more nuanced, difficult conversations.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, it’s absolutely, I totally agree with you, because I think that it’s, it’s hard, right? Like you. You don’t want to say, like hey, like you. You no one should take these medications. You know, people are going to take them. So how do we meet people where they’re at with what they’re doing, and maybe prevent some of the harm that’s going to most likely happen as a result of, you know, taking them. And so it is hard, and I and I appreciate your your wisdom there, having worked in that field in some way, shape and or form. One of the other things that I wanted to talk to you about was that you talk about quite a bit, is the importance of cultural sensitivity in the anti diet space, and so I guess first, for people listening like, what can you just maybe define cultural sensitivity?

Vincci:
That’s a hard one. I almost feel like I need to like google it like, what is cultural sensitivity? Okay, I’ll try on my own first, and then if this is not a good answer, then maybe I’ll, like, whip out the old Google to me, like cultural sensitivity. It’s, I guess, like being sensitive, being humble to other, yeah, like cultures, especially like different cultures, especially if they’re cultures that are not your own. And I think, like, you know, recognizing and honoring the needs of like people who come from those cultures. And I think often we talk about cultural sensitivity or cultural humility or cultural competence, like in the context of different, I guess, like ethnic cultures, which, I mean, yes, is important, and I think it can also apply to like, different types of culture within, say, different marginalized communities. So like, because I think we hear about like, you know, queer culture all the time, or, or like, I think, you know, neurodivergent culture is like, one of the things that are coming up. And I think, yeah, there is, like, a fat culture. And so I think it is, yeah, being sensitive to the needs of others and and being conscious that, like, you know, I mean, like, I think we know this on an individual level, but what ends up like, you know, to be sensitive, to let that like, yeah, something that works for one person. Like, doesn’t work for everyone. But I think where this gets all tangled up is when we’re talking about, say, like, science and evidence, like, because, like, you know, being a dietitian. And I don’t know if this is the same for like, other health providers, but they like, drill into us, like, from the get go and you see it, and a lot of like, dietitian marketing as well that, you know, like, dietitians are, you know, your evidence based source of nutrition or whatever. And so what ends up happening, I think, is that, you know, people feel like, oh, I need, like, the evidence is like, what I need to listen to, but like, what is forming the base of our evidence, right? Like, and who is doing the research, and who is the research being done on like, I think, you know, like, women were only like, only had to be included in like, NIH, so the National Institute of Health funded studies. I think it was like in the early 80s, which is not very long ago, that like that, like women, were required to be included in studies. And like, you know, even more recently, right? Like the news item that came out, like, just in the past year, is like, for like, it was only this year where they started testing absorbency of like, period products, like on actual, like, using actual period blood. Like before that they were using saline. And so the problem with, you know, just listening to the evidence, is that like you’re like, well, like this is what works for a lot. Of people or, or, you know, this was, like, we came up with this using a very scientifically rigorous method, but it still doesn’t necessarily apply to, you know, people who don’t match up with the population that was studied and doesn’t honor, like, kind of those cultural needs. And so I think, yeah, that’s, that’s the long answer to what cultural sensitivity is.

Summer:
Yeah, no, it makes, it makes perfect sense and and also like that is that is just pervasive in the mental health field as well. When you look at who is participating in these studies, who is designing the studies, like is very much colonial, you know, perspectives. And that is something that I’ve been really keen on looking at. Like, whenever I have to do a research paper, is okay, well, who’s missing and and what data is there? And, you know, in, like, the eating disorder field and whatnot, like I there’s so just a handful of studies that look at like black and indigenous people’s experiences, like you can probably count them on, like two hands. Maybe don’t quote me on that, but, but I did, I do there is, there is like a paper that looks at like the bias in that. And so it is, it is beyond nutrition, to your point, because you’ve said, like, I don’t know if this is just in the dietetics field, but no, it is, like, it is in mental health as well, and and so I guess then, like, what I’m curious about, like, you mentioned a couple things there, but like, where do you think some of the messaging is falling short as it relates to like mainstream nutrition advice, or even like mainstream, like anti diet advice. Like, do you feel like that is then falling short because of this reliance on like things that are evidence based, but the evidence is more biased.

Vincci:
I mean, like, like, so many things like, I Well, even when I think about, you know, like nutrition in general, right? Like, people always say, like the Mediterranean diet is, like the healthiest diet, or whatever, and and, like, even when we and it’s, it’s such a weird, like mixture, I think of, like colonialism. And also, I don’t know if, like, Orientalism is the right word, but sort of that, like, fascination with things that are ethnic, because, like, in some way, it’s like, oh, like Mediterranean, like, there’s this, like, sort of feeling like, Oh, that’s so and maybe this is, this is more of, like, uh, like a North American perspective, but it feels like, oh, like Mediterranean. It’s so like, you know, like they live, like, different lifestyles than us. Or, I think even the fascination with, like, Blue Zones, sort of that, like, you know, pudding kind of like, or sort of that, yeah, I don’t know what the I don’t know what the word is off the top of my head, but like that kind of putting the like, you know, other cultures, like, on a pedestal, but it’s like, almost, you know, just kind of taking the certain parts of it and not like appreciating the culture, like, kind of as a whole. And I think, like, you know, when it comes to, you know, being culturally sensitive around food the first or around nutrition. Like, the first thing people do is, like, oh, well, like, I’ll just make sure that I include people’s like, these ethnic foods or whatever. Like, okay, like, I have, you know, an Indian client, I’ll make sure that, like, we have, like, naan and roti on the menu instead of just bread, and we’re good. And it goes so far beyond that, like even if we’re just talking about food, like the you know, our beliefs about food can be so different how we eat, like some of the eating, different eating patterns that different people have. And then, like, you know, going beyond that, what are, like, some of the cultural beliefs about, like, bodies and and even, you know, like, how we interact with health providers, like people who are in positions of authority, like, yeah, there’s just so much. And it’s unfortunate that, at least, I think in some nutrition spaces, it’s just like, Okay, well, I just, you know, need to maybe go to an Indian restaurant. This is an extreme example, but, like, it’s like, oh, I just need to, you know, visit, like, one of the ethnic grocery stores and, and then I’ll understand. And it’s like, no, that’s unfortunately not the case.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally, and, yeah, I feel like there’s a lot of sweeping assumptions that can be made, and what I’m hearing is that it really is very like, individual and nuanced, and it’s more about like, understanding someone’s worldview and their own, you know, tradition. And in order to have a better be in a better place, to maybe support them. Did you see the article that where the person looked at the Blue Zones and found that it was complete crap?

Vincci:
I think I saw the headline, but I haven’t. I didn’t click through to read it.

Summer:
It’s super interesting. Yeah, I will try to dig it up and put it in the show notes, and I’ll send it to you. But it basically like I may be summarizing this, not perfectly, but that the regions that were can were blue zones, but they found to be blue zones actually just had really flawed record keeping. So either the records, a lot of the records, were destroyed in, for example, the war, or there’s a lot of, like, pension fraud. And so therefore you it looks like people were living longer, but really they just didn’t have accurate records. And so, yeah, it’s really fascinating. I read the article, and I was like, what? Because they made, like, a whole Netflix documentary. Yeah, it’s more just your point about, like, what is evidence based? And, you know, obviously evidence based is is good, but not. We can also maybe, like, question the evidence, or look at, like, the actual studies and how they were designed and things like that. And not everybody has time to do that, obviously. But for, you know, it’s like people like yourself that will actually go and look at the research that I think is so valuable for for other people, so in terms of cultural sensitivity, like for, I guess, for practitioners in the space, like, what do you wish there would be? What kind of conversations do you wish you’d see more of?

Vincci:
I mean, I think, like, you know people, I think practitioners need to, yeah, like, go out of their way to, like, learn from people who are from other cultures. And again, like, not just different ethnic cultures, even though that is very important. But also, like, you know, people who are from the LGBTQ plus community, people who are from people who are neurodivergent, from people who are disabled. Like, yeah, I think those are, you know, important cultures as well. And I think, like listening to our clients and and there is a difference between relying on our clients to teach us, which we don’t want to do, and like listening to their stories, right? Because, I think, you know, it’s a that’s why it’s important to kind of do our own learning, so that, you know, we have an idea of, like, what is out there, but when it comes to, like, talking to our clients, like, I think it’s respecting that. Like, you know, no group is a monolith. I’m sure. Like, my experience as a Chinese person or a person of Chinese descent is is different from, you know, other people. It’s so it’s kind of like, yeah, listening to their stories. Because, like, Yeah, I think it’s important to hear, like, the stories of the individuals that we are working with, and then also having that background knowledge to be like, okay, like, it it makes sense. Like, why that is there, or like, oh, like, or, or it make it can also make sense, like, why it’s different? Because, you know, like we are living even though I am, I come from Hong Kong, like I’ve lived in Canada almost my entire life, and so, yeah, kind of that experience is different. So I think you know, if your client is open to sharing their story, like really paying attention to it, and then using your own kind of background knowledge research learning to kind of, you know, make those connections.

Summer:
Yeah, that makes sense.

Great. And so where can people find more of you?

Vincci:
I’m like, where am I these days? Like we were just talking, I think off Mike about how, like, we’ve given up on social media. I am. I mean, I think I’m most active if I am active on Instagram, like at Vinci. Rd, so that’s V, I n, c, c, I r, d, I like people can also, you know, learn more about how to work with me on my website. That’s Vinci, choi.com, or VI, n, C, C, i, t, s, u, i.com because my name is not spelled how it’s pronounced. Yeah. And I also run, I guess, a continuing education platform for dietitians called weight inclusive dietitians in Canada or wittic, and we are at weight inclusive.ca.

Summer:
Great, amazing. And so, do you work with people? Like, if people are like, oh, I need a dietitian. Like, do you work with people privately? I know you had, like, you had, like, an emotional. Meeting group that you were doing. And so Okay, so people can find all that on your website. Yeah? Then, yes, great. Yeah, amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here. It was lovely chatting with you, and I’m so glad we’ve had this opportunity to finally connect.

Vincci:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Summer:
That was a great conversation, and I hope you enjoyed it too. You can find the links mentioned at summer innan.com, forward slash, 318, thank you so much for being here. Rock on.

I’m Summer innan, and I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer innan, and if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts, search, eat the rules and subscribe, rate and review this show. I would be so grateful until next time, rock on you.