They also talk about how dieting fuels drinking, why we should not compare food addiction to alcohol addiction, and signs that you should visit your relationship with alcohol.

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Lael:
So with alcohol just using that as an example, any addictive substance, the longer it’s out of your system, the easier it’s going to be. And I’m not saying it’s you know, it really depends on the person and their situation. I’m not saying it’s easy to go through that process, but the longer that it is out of your system, the easier it’s going to be. And with you know, food or whatever specific food you’re trying to avoid, the more you actually have it, the easier it gets and the less you feel addicted to it.

Summer:
This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image, self worth, anti dieting, and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance, with personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group.

This is episode 293 and I’m with Lael Atkinson Certified Professional recovery coach who works at the intersection of drinking and dieting. They are talking about the similarities between drinking culture and diet culture and how both of these things have set us up to steal our time energy and money. Lil’s also talking about how dieting fuels drinking, why we should not compare food addiction to alcohol addiction, signs that you should visit your relationship with alcohol and more. You can find the links mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 293.

I want to give a shout out to a LM Oh, who left this review summers podcast is great. She is so relatable and down to earth. She has a very approachable style and there’s a really good interview or don’t miss. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that review. You can leave a review by heading to Apple podcasts search for eat the rules, then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. If you haven’t already done so, definitely grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover. With 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. You can get that at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies. And if you are a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap and you can always just go to the body image coach.com to get anything that you hear mentioned on the podcast.

I’m really excited about today’s topic, because there are so many similarities between drinking culture and diet culture, and so many misconceptions about alcohol addiction and compared to food addiction. And that’s what we’re digging into today. It’s been really interesting for me to have this interview and then unpack my own relationship with alcohol and what that was like, at the height of my disordered eating back in my 20s which was like two decades ago now. And so super interesting to kind of connect those dots and hopefully it’ll maybe connect some of those dots for you today. Lael Atkinson de them is a certified professional recovery coach who works at the intersection of drinking and dieting. They support folks who struggle with alcohol and or with disordered eating and body image issues. Lael also runs the beyond drinking and drinking course and group coaching program. Let’s get started with the show. Hello, Lael, welcome to the show.

Lael:
Thank you so much. It’s so awesome to be here.

Summer:
Yeah, I’m so excited to have you here today. Why don’t you start by telling everyone a little bit about how you got into this work? Sure.

Lael:
So it was a long and winding road. It started when I came out as queer. And that led me to quit drinking. And that led me to looking at and healing my disordered eating and body image issues when I say that, but that’s still a work in progress probably will be, you know, forever, as you kind of know. And I knew about halfway through that process that I wanted to become a recovery coach, and I signed up for my first certification. And then after a while of working with clients on their relationship with alcohol, I noticed that over and over again, issues with food and body kept coming up as well just that they had with me, which led me to addressing both and also looking at the intersection of the two Yeah,

Summer:
amazing. I think, you know, in reading what you wrote when they wrote me and said, like, here’s what I want to talk about in the show, I was like, oh my god, like, there’s so many similarities between the two things, and especially culturally. So what similarities do you notice between the way that dieting and drinking are marketed to us?

Lael:
Yeah, there’s so many, just to name a few. So women, especially are targeted in both cases, and both promise that we’ll have all the fun the sex, acquire youth, all of that good stuff. We’re made to feel shame if we can’t do either one, quote unquote, normally or quote unquote, right or correctly, and they’re both fucking everywhere. They’re in the air that we breathe. So yeah, yeah.

Summer:
Yeah. And like, something I noticed is like, they’re both marketed in this way of it being like, empowering, like the, you know, it’s like, this is empowering, like dieting is empowering. And drinking is empowering, or, you know, kind of letting loose or being social, or it’s about sort of like having that social power. And when really like, they stem from these oppressive systems, and they really, ultimately kind of, you know, strip us of our power. Right now spot on. Yep. Yeah, yeah. So you say that in both the case of drinking and dieting that we’ve been set up, meaning like, we’re not able to, not all of us are able to kind of like successfully moderate our drinking. And that can be kind of very similar to like, not being able to kind of like diet successfully, like, can you speak to those two things?

Lael:
Yes. Whether it’s not being able to moderate our drinking, or not being able to diet, quote, I’m going to, quote unquote, a lot successfully, we tend to conclude that it’s an issue of willpower, and that if only we had more, if only we tried harder, it would work. But in both cases, it’s not about willpower. So with booze we’re giving and we’re given an addictive substance and told that it’s necessary. Like I said before, to have fun, have sex have connection, to celebrate, to de stress to sleep, and on and on. And we’re told that there’s something wrong with us if we can’t do it normally, quote, but we would think it absurd. If somebody said we should be able to smoke cigarettes normally, or snort cocaine, normally other addictive substances, but we don’t question that message with alcohol. And with dieting, we’re told that there is an ideal body both aesthetically and health wise, and that if we attain it, we’ll have more fun, find love, have more and better sex. And again, we’re told that if we can’t attain it, it’s our fault, not the fault of the diet, combined with our body’s biological drive to survive, not to mention the fact that body diversity is very real. And we’re also told that we have to fit the stereotype of an alcoholic, which isn’t even the proper medical term anymore, it’s having alcohol use disorder, or have someone with a full blown eating disorder to question either our drinking or relationship with food and our bodies. And the institutions that profit off of are not questioning either want us to remain in the dark, they want us to keep the focus on ourselves, not on them. And you know, I think, especially with the body and food stuff, like you know, it can be really, really interfering with our lives without it being you know, it’s a spectrum. You know, in both cases, it can be really just creating harm in our lives, even if we wouldn’t be diagnosed, you know, as one thing or another.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, that’s such a good point, right? And it’s like, they’re both so normalized, like it’s like, so normalized to, you know, sit around and talk about the food that you’re not eating, or the calories that you’re not eating, and similarly. It’s like really normalized to be like, especially when I became a mother, like, it was like, well, let’s have a glass of wine to kind of, like, take the edge off, like, and it was. So it’s so normalized that mommy wine culture is so normalized. And like, because of that normalization, like you might not even think to question your relationship to it. Right? Like, that’s, I believe, that’s what I’m taking away from what you said,

Lael:
no for sure. Yeah. I mean, I didn’t for decades, you know, in both cases.

Summer:
Yeah. So I guess like, I’m curious about that. Before we go further into this conversation, like, what are some of the signs that we should examine our relationship with alcohol?

Lael:
Ah, well, first, I want to say I strongly believe in bodily autonomy, is it body autonomy or bodily autonomy? I think they’re the same thing, right? Both okay. And to make a fully informed choice, you need to have all the facts about anything. So I’ll send you a few links that I don’t think I’ve done that yet with you about the latest research. That’s really it says no amount of alcohol is healthy. It’s related to many different forms of cancer. In fact, it’s not unlikely that in the future, we’ll have a similar history as cigarettes to all that said, I also support harm reduction. And I know that health is both incredibly complex, and it’s not a moral obligation. When I first quit, I never planned on it being for good. I was only taking a break. And I was extremely committed to drinking. It was a big part of my life. And I should also mention that I was still fully functioning in all areas of my life, even when I was drinking an average of a bottle of wine a night but after I quit, I started to learn about so many of the things Things that I was using alcohol to mask or cope or avoid. I learned about regulating emotions, I learned about tools to deal with stress, I learned about healing from trauma, I learned about the bullshit targeted marketing around alcohol, just like I learned about diet culture, and it’s bullshit marketing, as we’ve already kind of talked about, they really are incredibly similar. So honestly, if anyone in there is even curious about or entertaining, the idea of what role alcohol is playing in their life and how things might be without it, I would suggest you owe it to yourself to explore that thread. And you can do it while knowing that you are always in charge of yourself and your life.

Summer:
Hmm, yeah. So it’s like, not necessarily like a checklist, it’s kind of like, you kind of have to just sort of know, because with disordered eating it sort of like, you know, you think about food all the time you feel guilty after you eat something like there’s a bit more of sort of like a kind of a checklist, I guess, to sort of say like, Okay, I do have this disordered relationship with food, but with alcohol, it’s Yeah,

Lael:
yeah. And I mean, to that point, there are you know, and I know many people, you know, spend years googling the same kinds of things. Like, um, this is a bit of a tangent, but when you know how Amazon saves your entire order history when I quit, and that was, you know, considering continuing on with it. I, as many people do, I ordered, you know, all the books, and Amazon was like, you’ve already ordered and read that. And I was, I mean, didn’t tell me I’d read it, but, and I done it when I was drinking, and I didn’t remember. So sorry, tangent back to the there being a list. There are lists that you can get online, like, Am I an alcoholic? And but again, that’s only going to show like, the end end of the spectrum. In many cases, it won’t show, you know, is it really fucking with your life? Which it may be even if you’re not all the way over there? Yeah, yeah,

Summer:
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so you talked about how there’s also like this connection between dieting and drinking, like how dieting fuels drinking. So can you speak to that?

Lael:
Yes. So food restriction of any kind, it creates tremendous anxiety in the body. I’ve heard of that kind of restriction referred to more than once as a trauma, or a form of trauma. So folks may drink to deal with the that kind of anxiety as well as other possible discomforts of being in a body and surrounded by diet culture. And along the same lines, if you’re trying to quit drinking, dieting, and being hungry are going to make it so much more challenging. Also, when we’re feeling ashamed of our inability to manage our food consumption, drinking alcohol can provide us with a feeling of peace, however fleeting, and you know, kind of back to something you said before society encourages us to drink and it encourages us to diet, the number of times that you’ve heard people recount their drinking escapades is likely only rivaled by the number of times you’ve heard people talk about their latest diet.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think for me, one of the things is, you know, when I reflect on my relationship with alcohol, and like, I used to, like really party a lot, like in my 20s, and stuff, which is, you know, almost two decades ago now, but really, to one and a half, two decades ago. Now. I think that like, so much of my drinking was driven by my own, like discomfort in my own body. And it was like my body image. Like, the fact that I was so uncomfortable in my own skin was like, such an impetus to me being like, needing to be inebriated in order to feel comfortable in social situations. And so like, there’s that connection to it, as well of like, you know, bad body image drives the dieting, which can also like drive, the drinking, like, they’re all really interconnected. And I don’t think that I have necessarily connected those dots so much like until, you know, these kinds of conversations are like the one I had with Hollywood occur a couple of years ago. But it’s interesting to like, think about those things for yourself. Because it’s like, Yeah, are you using it to kind of cope? Or are you using it to numb are using it to feel comfortable in social situations? I think a lot of us probably are or were,

Lael:
yeah, my drinking was, you know, I didn’t a lot of this, I figured out in hindsight, but it was completely intertwined with my body image, I hope things slipped, in my case, also with my queerness and suppressing that for a long time. So yeah, there could be a lot of things going on there.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you mentioned like dieting when we’re restricting food, like that can create anxiety and it’s like this vicious cycle, because when you drink that increases anxiety the next day, like because of the hormonal implications, so then you’re like, feeling even more anxious and then you might restrict food more or you might double down like you might drink more so they sort of like almost Tumbleweed into an unknown one another like creating this bigger storm that’s happening.

Lael:
Yep. I mean, one of my like, most common patterns was and I don’t think I’m alone in this was you know, I mean, I don’t even know which point to start out because it you could pick any point but I would, you know, drink maybe more than I intended to and the next morning feel absolutely awful and I’d eat a lot of food because that would make me feel better. I just I wouldn’t worry about whatever frickin diet but then that would catch up with me in the sense of just feeling like crap about that. So then you drank and then it’s just I mean, like you said they can they just feed each other in a lot of ways.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, I used to do the same thing, except then I would diet harder to like try to undo the eating that I did when I was drinking, like, and I’m sort of laughing about it. But it is serious, but, but it’s like, yeah, I’m fully just like connecting all these dots as I’m talking to you. But I’m curious to know, because I feel like there is kind of this CO occurrence between eating disorders and substance abuse. Do you know what the stats are on those things?

Lael:
I know some of them. And yeah, a lot of the studies I’ve looked at are specifically in the LGBTQ plus community, but I can speak to them generally, as well. So a lot of the studies show that eating disorders, they do frequently occur with other mental health issues. So for example, depression, anxiety, addiction, they’re all common with binge eating disorder, which is the most common eating disorder in the US and 95% of patients with binge eating disorder, have a family history of ng eating or substance use issues, or both. That’s pretty darn high.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. So I know one of the things you talked about is like sort of how there’s this comparison between sugar or food addiction, and alcohol addiction. And I think that or maybe not even addiction, but like alcohol, like having a disordered relationship. And I think, you know, I hear that from a lot of people, but you say they’re not comparable addiction. So I would absolutely love for you to speak to that.

Lael:
Yeah, well, so it’s not just a matter of semantics, that’s really important to say, and it matters so much, because the way you treat them is going to be completely different. And tell me like, truly, would it be a cop out if I kind of stopped there and refer people to I created a free resource on this exact topic. And so if folks want to go to my website, and I’ll give you the link to, it’s like, it’s under 20 minutes, it’s just under 20 minutes. And I just dive into everything about that, because it does come up so much, you know, people worried that they’ve transferred addictions, you know, if they quit alcohol or something else, or they just, you know, even without that they worried that they are or feel I shouldn’t even say they feel it is a very real, I want to honor that feeling of you know, that you feel addicted to, you know, specifically sugar or food in general. Again, I go into in detail there, it’s the reason that it’s so important that they’re not the same is because it’s almost polar opposite of how you actually deal with them in both cases, or neither.

Summer:
Can you speak to that a little bit? Like, can you elaborate on what you mean, when you say that

Lael:
I’ve given away my free resource, but yes, although I go into a lot more detail there. But so with alcohol, just using that, as an example, any addictive substance, the longer it’s out of your system, the easier it’s going to be. And I’m not saying it’s you know, it really depends on the person and their situation, I’m not saying it’s easy to go through that process. But the longer that it is out of your system, the easier it’s going to be. And with you know, food or whatever specific food you’re trying to avoid, the more you actually have it, the easier it gets, and the less you feel addicted to it. So that’s just one example where they’re the opposite. You know, it’s the restriction in one case, that is creating the feeling whereas the other case, it’s the substance itself that is creating the field or the actual addiction.

Summer:
That makes sense. Yeah, because a lot of times what you see is people applying the same recovery lens to food addiction as they would to alcohol or substance.

Lael:
I think, and I won’t pretend that I’ve read the whole thing. But I’ve heard, I think when people are trying to talk about food addiction, or I should say, trying, there’s a harvard medical study that is referred to and what I understand about that study is a very, it’s lacking a very big thing. They didn’t take into account histories of restriction and dieting, and which changes the whole game, right?

Summer:
Yeah, I’m not like, in this moment, super familiar with the research. But from a general perspective, like my understanding is, like the research done on rats, as an example is that they restricted the rats, like they deprive them of sugar before they gave them sugar. So like, of course, you’re going to have this over consumption happening as a result of that deprivation. So, again, I think it’s just speaking to your point that it’s like with food, it’s like the restriction actually drives that feeling of addiction, whereas with alcohol restriction actually eases those feelings of addiction. Like that’s the summary that I’m taking away here.

Lael:
Right, right. Maybe the same study is like a 2016 review of the scientific literature. It’s that’s one of the things that I talked about, and quote in my, in that little free resource if folks grab it.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, it’s so hard for people because like, I think some people really identify with that feeling of addiction with food, and absolutely, yeah, yeah. And that can be hard to then, like, I don’t want to invalidate someone’s experience, like you said,

Lael:
and it makes sense that if you’re like, Okay, I know what to do, you know, because I understand that that’s what you do with you know, alcohol or something else, then you do that, and then it’s just it’s heartbreaking because people are so confused, like, why and they feel like it’s them, you know, it’s their fault. Like, why isn’t this working and it is not?

Summer:
Yeah. So instead of kind of centering conversations around food addiction, like you say that we you know, we should be talking about something Different, right? So you say that dieting and drinking are really what we should be talking about instead of food addiction. So, like, what do you wish people were talking about instead?

Lael:
Yeah. So instead of, you know, comparing alcohol and food, it’s comparing drinking and drinking and the act of dieting. And again, it’s totally understandable if people make the assumption that food issues are similar to issues with alcohol. But yeah, I think the real comparison is between drinking and dieting, and a handful of the ways that the two are similar. We’ve already touched on a few such as we’re told that there’s something wrong with us if we can’t do it, quote, unquote, normally, or successfully. But in truth, it isn’t. The problem isn’t with us as with a thing, they are both coping mechanisms. They’re both completely normalized in our culture. They’re both socially encouraged. They both act as a bonding tool. Sometimes at the same time, there’s lots of both of them have a lot of conflicting information and research on them. They both promise that you’ll fit in and be loved and then failed to deliver on that promise. And in both cases, quitting will likely and earth a lot of feelings. Not always welcome feelings. But yeah,

Summer:
yeah, absolutely. Right. Because it’s a rough coping mechanism. So there’s going to be feelings there. Yeah, it almost makes me wonder, like in the context of, you know, the culture we live in, and the pervasiveness of, of anti fat bias, it’s like, if that didn’t exist, then food addiction would probably not even be an issue, because although it probably wouldn’t be an issue either. But food addiction probably wouldn’t be an issue as much, because I think that so much of people’s feelings around food addiction is driven by fear of fatness and 100%.

Yeah, and I also agree with the whole, you know, you said it very quickly, but just like dieting in general would probably go by the wayside for the most part, because that’s why the hell do we do it? Otherwise? Yeah.

Summer:
Ya know, it’s just interesting to think about that. So you say that it’s really common, especially in the beginning to be in a place of cognitive dissonance. So where are you both? Like, I guess you can kind of explain this further about where you want to, like drink or diet. And simultaneously, like, you don’t want to drink or diet. So yeah, can you just kind of break that down a little more?

Lael:
Yeah. So in both cases, there were reasons we were doing the thing, right. And those reasons don’t just vanish overnight. So even if we’re at the point where we want to stop, our brains are wired to drive us to return to the thing that we’re used to using that we were used to using for so long to cope, and that we’re habituated to. So just start we need to learn to both ride out those urges, and as well as find new coping mechanisms. And yeah, I mean, you’ve I know, you’ve gone through that process with the, you know, food and body stuff. So it’s layered, it is so layered, especially in the beginning, just kind of having, you know, one foot in one foot out is very, very common. Same with drinking.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. And to kind of go back and forth. Like I feel like especially in like a 12 step recovery. And you can correct me if I’m wrong, because I’m not, I have never done a 12 step recovery program or anything like that. But

Lael:
Me neither, I don’t do it all step. But yeah, I know about it, though. Yeah.

Summer:
But in that environment, it’s kind of like, if you slip up, like, I feel like there’s kind of shame around that, like, is that right? Or is it kind of like, come back again, you’re okay, like, yeah,

Lael:
so I’m going to tread carefully here. So I did not ever do 12 Step. And I, it’s not something that I use when I coach folks and support them. But if somebody is also doing that, like, that’s absolutely fine. You know, I mean, whether it’s 12 Step, or any other modality, whatever works for the person I am all for. And I also know that I’m glad there are a lot of modalities, because I know 12 step does not work for a lot of people. And that’s part of the reason there can be this, you know, just this counting of days that the pressure of that can be too much. If you know you do as you put it slip up, there can be a lot of shame associated with it. So yeah, like I said, um, it works for some people and not for everybody.

Summer:
Yeah. So if someone’s listening to this, and they’re kind of like questioning like, Hmm, do I need to revisit or visit my relationship with alcohol? What’s your advice to them?

Lael:
Yeah, it really does depend on the individual. So it’s a little hard to give a general answer, but I will give it a shot. So is it possible to quit altogether? It absolutely is. I’m not saying it’ll be a breeze again, that’s going to depend on the person and how much they drank and how a host of other factors. And while I do fully support harm reduction, I struggle with advising moderation only because it’s so fucking hard. I know it I tried it myself, and it took all my time and energy to maintain that. So it’s a little like being trying to be anti diet while still dieting, I personally feel that the best relationship with alcohol is as viewed in the rearview mirror. And I’ve also heard it described as breaking up with somebody who no longer serves you. Some folks make may find it helpful to make two lists side by side, the first list everything you’re getting from alcohol and then the second list everything that alcohol is taking from you see what comes up?

Summer:
Yeah. And so like if someone is sort of in a moment where they are, you know, let’s just say they’re, you know, they had a really crappy day. And they’re like, I just really want to have a drink. And obviously, I know this is individual, but I’m just from like a kind of broader perspective, like, what are some of the things that you would sort of advise them to consider or some actions that you would encourage them to take? That would be helpful in most instances?

Lael:
So is this somebody who is actively trying to quit drinking?

Summer:
I guess that’s, I guess that’s the question like, I don’t know, if they’re trying to, like, maybe they’re not trying to quit. Maybe they’re just like, maybe they’ve heard this podcast. Maybe they’re like, Hmm, maybe drinking is not the best idea for me. But I’ve had this really crappy day and like, I just want to have a drink, like, what would you advise them to do?

Lael:
Yeah, it’s a little hard just because it’s, you know, it really does have to come from us that desire. So I’m going to, like, add to the scenario that they want us, you know, they do want to, like, at least try it on for size. You know, yeah. Fair, that’s probably a horrible way to put it given the podcast, but you know, what I mean? So look at it as an experiment, and just, you know, I don’t know, see what, yeah, even just one night, see what happens, you know, and sit with what comes up. And I’m not saying it’ll be fun, you know, it’s like, kind of like, you know, if somebody tries meditation, they’re like, well, this just sucks. Why, why do people even want to do this ever, but that can be good information. I mean, and if somebody is trying to do it for even just, especially in the beginning, I mean, I have a list of tools. And I mean, I’m a big fan of just distract the hell out of yourself, you know, like, go to a movie, occupy yourself go to you know, you know, an AAA they’re, they’re called meetings, there are other things like, there are other groups that offer things called same idea free gatherings, and be with other people who are, you know, have done this a long time, or other ones, then it’s probably a mix. And they’re going to be people that are exactly where you are, and just starting, and you can, you know, compare notes committed, great, just support one another. I mean, all the stress techniques, you know, stress relief, if that is coming up for a person, so everything from tapping to breathing exercises, yeah, experiment, this doesn’t work for everybody, because it can be a little too activating. But you know, there’s more and more there are mocktails. And there’s an A beer and na wine. I’ve personally never find anyone that I like, but that sounds like anyone and a why not? No? Coholic non alcoholic? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there’s so many forms of support both individual and group, and you know, everything from if you can afford it, you know, to pay somebody to so many free resources out there in forms of support.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s super helpful. Yeah. And it’s interesting, kind of like listening to you and thinking about like, okay, it’s the same, it’s very similar with dieting, right? It’s like, you know, you feel these urges to diet, or you feel this urge to sort of restrict food, it’s like sitting with the uncomfortable feelings, finding ways to distract yourself looking at stress reduction, trying to find supportive communities, or get individual help if you if that’s available to you.

Lael:
I was gonna say, yeah, the order that I did them in is I and for me, it wouldn’t have worked any other way. I quit drinking. And then, and it took a while after that, until I was ready to look at my food and body image issues. They went, they just went so deep. And so, you know, far back in my history, but I don’t think there was one thing that I had learned, like through quitting drinking, that I did not put to use in going through that later process. I mean, it’s yeah, they absolutely. It absolutely supported me in that.

Summer:
Yeah. And that’s so interesting. I like I it’s great to think about that, to know that that’s available. And, and like that, you know, and that they both really stem from a similar place of just, you know, like, needing to cope.

Lael:
This kind of goes in with, I don’t know, a lot of like, or just a theme that runs throughout your stuff, I think is that, you know, giving the middle finger to diet culture is, you know, it’s cutting edge, it’s rebellious. It’s the same thing with you know, giving the middle finger to drinking culture and saying, Yeah, and so trying that on, so that can also, you know, help somebody get through some of the tougher moments like thinking about it that way. Yeah.

Summer:
Yeah. Cuz there’s so many companies that are profiting off of that, right. Like, and, and that market specifically to usually younger people to make it like really cool. And yeah, like something that you need to be doing in order to have that social power, like, which comes back to but really, it detracts from that because it takes some of your life away, you know, ultimately, and

Lael:
your money. I mean, the things that you hear about, you know, diet culture, it takes your money, your time, your energy, it’s like, very, very similar in a lot of ways.

Summer:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So interesting.

Lael:
And knowing that just makes me angry. I don’t know about you, but and that anger like fuels me to

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. Like it was really, I think, you know, my first sort of exposure to that was in my conversation with Hollywood worker and, and I was like, oh, like, yes, okay, like because it was I had never thought about it in that regard, that it’s really like this way, almost like this patriarchal structure that can it causes more harm and like, yeah, and steals our time, energy and money and,

Lael:
yeah, her book like a woman is one One of the ones that I recommend kind of in the if people are at the beginning of that journey, and that and Anna Grace’s book, this naked mind, because that really goes into the science of it, which I know for me, it helped just understanding how alcohol works in a human body just helped me release so much shame that I didn’t even realize I was carrying. So that those two books, they offer very different things. But I think that’s why I’d like to point people towards both of them.

Summer:
Interesting, okay, I’ll add that one to the shownotes. With that said, was there any tidbit there that you wanted to share about what it does in the body that in particular helped you release the shame around it?

Lael:
Just how it’s, I know that sounds silly, but just how incredibly like addicting it is, you know, and how quickly that works, too. And how just with within 20 minutes of, that’s how quickly like the pleasurable effects of a drink start wearing off. And so of course, you’re gonna keep drinking, because you want to keep that feeling. So that was one thing. I was like, Holy crap, I had no idea that it works that quickly.

Summer:
Yeah. Interesting. I’ll have to check that out. So where can people find more of you? And if you want to talk about just anything that you like, how you help people or anything that you have on that you want to share?

Lael:
Yeah, thank you. So you can find pretty much everything at my website, which is Lael atkinson.com. So I offer one on one coaching, and whether folks want to work on you know, the disordered eating and body image or alcohol use, or both of them totally up to you, or, you know, I mean, as you know, with these things like life because everything comes up, right. And then I also have a course called Beyond shrinking and drinking. And I’m very excited to be launching starting April 2, the first group coaching program around that. So that has its own website, which I’ll show you the link for but you can also link to it from my main website. And then that free resource that I mentioned about how to stop feeling addicted to sugar or other foods is also on on my main website.

Summer:
Okay, awesome. So beyond drinking and drinking, who’s that for?

Lael:
you’re gonna make me go to my own website and read the list. Like, specific, I’m just going to quote myself, it is for those who have so I’ve got a list those who have parted ways with alcohol and are struggling to get to a place of peace with their body, those who turned to alcohol turn or turned present or past to alcohol as a way of coping with how they feel about their body. Those are aware of an uncomfortable relationship with food or specific food types now that they’ve left the booze behind those who are considering going back to drinking in hopes of getting back to what felt like a manageable place with food and are to escape uncomfortable feelings about their bodies. Last one, those who are struggling to get to a peace, a place of peace and freedom with our body and our food absent any issues with alcohol.

Summer:
Okay, amazing. Awesome. Well, we’ll definitely link to that in the show notes. And thank you so much for being here today. It was really great having this conversation.

Lael:
I agree. Now, this was super enjoyable. Thank you for having me.

Summer:
Rock on.

I hope you enjoyed that one as much as I did, you can find all the links mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 293. There’s quite a few links there including labels group program beyond drinking and drinking, as well as the free guide about food or sugar addiction. In addition to that there’s a series of articles mentioned about alcohol and the health related impacts. Thank you so much for listening today. I really appreciate you being here. Rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.