We also talk about what body neutrality means when your body isn’t neutral in our culture, the importance of self-affirmation, and why eradicating anti-fat bias helps everyone.

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Nia:
So how are we supposed to just like foster neutrality in the way that neutrality is kind of like emblazoned across the internet? If society doesn’t like us doesn’t want us here doesn’t support us doesn’t make space for us. How are we supposed to just be like, Oh, whatever, I’m fine.

Summer:
This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image, self worth, anti dieting, and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix.

If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance, with personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group.

This is episode 290. And I’m with Nia Patterson, author of the newly released What’s the story a guided walkthrough of the stories you tell yourself about your body Nia shares their story of recovering from an eating disorder, what helped them in recovery. What body neutrality means when your body isn’t neutral in our culture, how core beliefs influence our body image the importance of self affirmation why eradicating Antifa bias helps everyone and so much more. You can find the links mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 290.

I want to give a shout out to Queen ARV who left this review. I’m so glad I have tuned into summers podcast as I am at the beginning of my work and intuitive eating and cultivating body image positivity summers episodes have the answers and support for all of my questions and trepidation. It’s easy to find an episode that works on a specific challenge. I’ve been skipping around but I think I’ll just start at the beginning and listen to it all. The series provides so much information education and compassion. Thank you summer for creating this series. Thank you so much for leaving that review. I’m wondering if you’re referring to the body image series episodes, in which case, thank you so much amazing. Or if you’re referring to the whole podcast. Amazing. Thank you so much. You can leave a review, it helps others to find the information that you’re learning here, it’s a good way to support the show for free. You can do that by going to Apple podcasts search for eat the rules and click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. You can also subscribe to the show via whatever platform you use. If you do listen to this podcast on Spotify, there is now an option to submit a question at the bottom of the episode.

So if you’re listening to this episode, there should be a little thing where you can write in a question and I will get notifications of those. So if you have a question coming out of any episode that you listen to, if you want to give me an idea for future content, or you say like hey, I’m wondering if you could talk about this topic further. Or if you just want to say hey, great episode. That’s so appreciated. It helps me to feel like I’m not just talking to a wall you can grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now and feel better in your body. And if you’re a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles that the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap.

I’m really excited about today’s guests on the show I have been following Nia Patterson, they them who goes by the front I never want it on Instagram. You may know them too. You’ve been following them for a few years and was really excited to see they had a new book coming out and immediately wanted to book them for the podcast. Nia is a well respected black and queer mental health advocate, social activist, artist, content creator podcaster and business and body image coach. They are the creator behind the front I never wanted and the artists behind self love tool chest. They are also the host and producer of the body trauma podcast. Their work is mainly centered around eating disorder recovery, body liberation, fat activism, LGBTQ i A to S plus and body acceptance where Nia is passionate about advocating for people in marginalized bodies and seeks to bring resources to those who do not readily see representation and health care for themselves. I really liked the book. What’s the story, Mia’s book that we’re going to be talking a little bit about today. It’s more of a workbook so there’s a lot of prompts and there, if you’re looking to do some self reflection, which is always a good idea, even though I think a lot of us resist it, but if you’re looking to do that, it’s great. And what I really appreciate about it is that it goes beyond our body, it looks at our lives and how aspects of our lives and aspects of our identity influence how we feel about our body. Let’s get started with the show. Hi, Nia, welcome to the show.

Nia:
Thank you for having me today.

Summer:
Thank you so much for being here. I’m absolutely thrilled to finally have you on the podcast and your new book is out, which I’m really excited about. And we will be talking about as well. But before we get into that, I would love for you to share with listeners just a little bit about your story. What was your relationship with your body, like where you were growing up?

Nia:
Yeah, that’s a great place to start. So my relationship with my body growing up was probably a little like, not the center focus of my life, surprisingly, like it. I mean, I think in some ways, I cared and was conscious of it. But I didn’t hyper focus on it in the way that I hyper focused on some other things growing up. But I was a very sportsy athletic kid, I didn’t necessarily like, look athletic in terms of like, thin, skinny, gangly, but like, I definitely had like a lot of muscle I remember, like, I would always be really excited to like, move the couch, like if I needed to, like it would just like lift the couch and like move it, and would be like, Oh, I’m so strong. And so like, I love that the way that we perceive our bodies as kids is so different. And that like, we’re like super excited to like, do things that feel hard and challenging. And I feel like we lose that a little bit. As we grew up, we sided. And I actually developed an eating disorder when around the time that I was nine, or 10. And at this point, even developing an eating disorder, I wasn’t hyper fixating on my body as much as I was hyper fixating on using food to numb out for my feelings. And so I would, essentially, Benji, I think a lot of it was just smacking as well, in order to just kind of have something in my life that felt good, because my life at that point was like, one kind of crisis after another. Like I think as an adult, I can look back and say that was kind of a catastrophe or kind of a crisis and own that. But as a kid, I was just like, I don’t know, life just like happening. And I’m like here. And it wasn’t until probably junior high when I moved to Nebraska and I was in a school that was a public school, I had gone to a private school, K through six. And in junior high kids are mean, like the kids that I went to school with Nebraska was so mean. And I did not get shoved in the lockers that I remember. But like, they definitely made a point of my body being bigger or different. And there were like points throughout my life that I can look back at and point out even in California before we moved, where there were comments made about my body, but they didn’t feel like I had to do something about it until junior high and that was kind of like, oh, I need to fit in. Or I don’t want to be left out. Or why am I the biggest kid on the soccer team? Why am I not getting picked for sports, because before it was very much the parenting style of like, have your kid include all the kids and stuff like that. And it was not like that in junior high. And then in high school, I can say that my eating disorder went from like probably just like a thing to like a thing. And I was hyper conscious of my body, I was trying to lose weight, I wanted to fit into smaller sizes and clothing. And I was just really unhappy with my body and that just kind of continued from high school through college and afterwards and was just rough. And so like that was kind of my relationship with my body. I ended up going to treatment for an eating disorder officially in 2017 I mean, I think after that it was still kind of a roller coaster of like how I felt when my body but it wasn’t I stopped actively trying to shove my body into what society and what my family and what the world thought I needed to fit my body into. So that was a little bit of the trajectory.

Summer:
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. One thing I always like to ask people who have recovered from an eating disorder or in recovery I guess because the word recovered sort of

Nia:
oh, I don’t like the D at the end the end at the end. Yeah.

Summer:
Exactly exactly. What was the hardest part for you as it relates to the recovery process?

Nia:
Oh, my gosh, I’ve never been asked that before. I think my immediate answer would be stepping down from treatment into the quote unquote, real world. That was hard. That was hard. But also, when I moved back to Nebraska, and being on my own, and not having my support system, and just living in my little apartment by myself, that was really, really hard, too. And I like I think everyone defines relapses and lapses differently, but I would say that was a hardcore lapse in recovery. But I was also like, it was like a physical lapse in recovery in that, like, I was not eating enough. But it was also like, mentally, I was so dedicated to like, my recovery that I don’t think it turned into, like falling back into my eating disorder longterm or anything like that. Because I was like, oh, no, we’re like, we’re, we’re gonna get through this. But I want to say that those two are like two of the hardest points. I think that just that the eating part was probably the hardest part overall, and eating consistently and eating enough throughout. Also, just finances and recovery are kind of oil and water sometimes when like for people who don’t have a lot of support from their family and have like a supportive job and stuff. And that was kind of rough, too. Yeah.

Summer:
I appreciate you sharing that. I know that it’s helpful for other people to hear that. It’s not just this easy process. And that, you know,

Nia:
no, no, I will never, ever say that. It was an easy process. I feel like that would be almost unfair to myself even to say that it was an easy process or that it was an easy time. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Summer:
Well, conversely, what do you feel helped you the most?

Nia:
This is going to be an interesting answer. I think the thing that’s probably helped me the most is social media. And I feel like social media gets not a great name in the mental health space, because I think it also does damage to mental health. But also I know, without social media, I would have been close to completely isolated, and I can definitively say that I would not have recovered in the way that I did.

Summer:
So how did it help you? Like was it like a sense of community? Was it seeing other people who, you know, like, look like you who are just, you know, good in their body, like what elements of it were the most helpful for you,

Nia:
it was a little bit of both of those. Although, when I was coming on social media in 2016 2017, there were not people that looked like me. So not too later on that front. But for me, when I say that social media like helped me recover, I mean, that when I did stepped down from IOP, into the quote, unquote, real world, I used social media as the only form of like, external accountability that I could find. And so I posted like six times a day, because I ate six times a day, and I had to and I checked in, like I would with a friend or a support person, and you know, it was less about how many likes I was getting, it was nice to get likes, and not gonna lie. But it was more the fact that like, I was showing up and posting and eating and being accountable to someone, even if like, even if there was just one person on the other side of Instagram, like, even if it was just Mark Zuckerberg, and he was just like, oh, yeah, Nina’s eating. Like, I feel like that would have been the very odd but it would have been like what I needed in that moment to like, just to keep eating, because otherwise, I don’t think I would have eaten I don’t think I would have felt the felt the compelling need to like, keep eating and want to eat and show up every day. And yeah, it was a rough time.

Summer:
But you have the courage and strength to continue, which is amazing.

Nia:
So necessary. I remember, early on in recovery. I think one of our support groups, someone said that I was really, really stubborn, and they hoped that I would be stubborn in my recovery as well. And I’ve held on to that for so many years because I am stubborn, and I will own that I am a stubborn human. And I feel like I have to keep trying because I have to get it right or I have to get to the end or I’m not going to give up and that has kept me in recovery.

Summer:
Brilliant. I love it. And so you’ve written the book. What’s the story? What inspired you to write that book?

Nia:
Yes, I got to a point this year where I was like, What can I teach people that I have done successfully? And I want to like disseminate the information that is in my head, I feel like sometimes my head is like probably 10 times the size that it actually is. And it just like looks the same size. I don’t know how that works, maybe it’s magic. But there’s a lot of information in my head. And I don’t know how brains work, but it’s in there somewhere. And I needed to get it out, I really desperately wanted to share it with so many people. And so I created my body liberation program, breaking body barriers this year, and had a couple clients go through it and really work with them one on one. And that was such an amazing spirit experience. In that program, we work through the workbook of the program. And there was a point where I was like, I feel like I’m gatekeeping. Like, I feel like I’m gatekeeping all this knowledge, I want people to be able to go through this workbook, even if it’s on their own, and they don’t have me next to them, helping them like I want them to have the opportunity that I didn’t have, essentially, because there there weren’t people that looked like me on social media and there weren’t fat, black non binary coaches, therapists are uneven, there weren’t even like fat therapists or like black therapists, especially in Nebraska. So like, I really wanted people to have the knowledge that I had. And I don’t know if anyone follows human design. I am a three six line manifesting generator, which means that I teach people from the mistakes and experiences that I’ve had. And so that felt really important that I put that out into the world. And so I put, I took my workbook and condensed it to like a more readable fill out of all that’s probably that a correct grammar word, but like version of the Google doc workbook, and created this book and published it, because if there’s something new, like a new project, new activity, new endeavor that I can go for, I’m going to go for it.

Summer:
So yeah, yeah, it’s really comprehensive. And I feel like it is like such a good guide for people. And there’s so many different problems, and you cover so many different things. I want to talk about some of the things that you talk about in the book, one of the things is the importance of like self affirmation, but I’m curious to know from your perspective, like what has worked and what doesn’t work for you, or what do you see like work for people and not work for people?

Nia:
Well, something that has worked for me in terms of self affirmation is getting over the I am too good for affirmations kind of feeling that I had going on and I feel like felt like hashtag positive vibes. Like bro culture just really does that to people where it’s like, I don’t need affirmations. These affirmations don’t fit for me, they don’t feel good for me saying like, I’m beautiful in the mirror feels like really false. These are some things that I’ve heard a lot of people say and yeah, I’ve also felt that where I was like, I’m not gonna sound beautiful in the mirror. I don’t feel beautiful, but like two things, one, make affirmations that feel good to you. For affirmations, if it feels icky, like, Oh, yes. Even if you say that affirmation to yourself, like 10 times in a row, and you don’t fully believe it, science shows that your brain is still buying into it. And learning that was like, kind of a weird little game changer for me, because I was like, I don’t believe it. I can say it, even if I don’t believe it. And it still creates those neural pathways. Until I do believe it. So like taking fake it till you make it I guess almost to like the extreme and reality because your brain is over there. Like, well, they said it so it must be true. And so that was like really nice to hear. And also taking the affirmations that like didn’t fit for me and just making my own. And so for me the first time that like affirmations played kind of a bigger role in my life was in treatment, but right before treatment and in treatment, my affirmation at the time was just, I’m okay. And I was like, I can get behind. I’m okay, because I know it’s true. Like, and I know that like in this moment, if I have to eat a sandwich, logically, I’m gonna be okay. I know that like my feet are on the ground and I’m sitting in this chair. So like in this moment, um, okay. And that was just very much like the like repeated phrase that I like gave myself with like, I’m okay. But even now, like if I am having a heightened emotional experience, so like if I’m having like a panic attack or if I’m, you know, really sad are like really mad. I find myself just like saying to myself, like, I’m okay, I’m okay. And it reminds me that like, you know, I am okay and like, even if things are Scary or hard or feel terrible in the moment? I am okay. And that has really been amazing for me.

Summer:
That’s great. Yeah, it’s almost like a form of self compassion in a way of just like, you know, comforting yourself with those words. Yeah.

Nia:
And it definitely didn’t start out that way. Like I very viscerally remember getting in the car after, like one therapy session and like, I like sat in the car and I was like, I’m gonna say it 10 times, and I was like, I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I was like, Okay, let’s go. Like it was literally just like, I was, like, I’m so not excited about this, but I’m gonna buy into it for the moment. And now it’s like, totally different.

Summer:
Good for you. One of the other things that you talked about you that you incorporate in your book is like having people look at their whole life. It’s not just about, you know, their relationship with their appearance. So what was important about that to you?

Nia:
Yes, I mean, we look at like, the determinants of health we look at like, all the things that go into making us like a healthy, happy, not even happy, but like, just like human like, and these things all play a role in us showing up every day as who we are, and why would they not also play a role in how we think and how we feel and who we are. And because all of these things are like variables in the experiment of our life, like, they have to play a role in how we feel about our bodies, and the stories that we tell ourselves. And even if the story that you originally told yourself was like about something completely unrelated to your body, your brain can like extrapolate it to other parts of your life. It just, it’s just how it works with trauma and everything. And so something that like, could be a core belief for you maybe started out very innocent, or just like not taking over your world. And now it’s like, wormed its way into like, all these different memories and events. And I’ve personally been working on that with like, EMDR. But also people do tapping people do all these different kinds of modalities to like, root out some of those core beliefs and work on them.

Summer:
Yeah, it is really tied to those and then they like, become the way we sort of identify with our body like it manifests in the beliefs we have about our body, like our body is a representation of that core belief. That’s what I’m trying to say.

Nia:
Right? Totally, totally.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s really good. I love EMDR and tapping as well. So I do find those to be really great modalities for people.

Nia:
Yes, I’m like, I’m like, I wish everyone could experience EMDR to like some extent, because it’s just been so helpful for me.

Summer:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s like one of those weird, unexplainable modalities. That just works.

Nia:
Right? I’m like, I would like to know why this works. But also, even if you told me all the science, I would still be like, okay.

Summer:
Yeah, totally. One of the other things that I’ve heard you talk about, and this is like, one of the quotes that you have is I don’t know how to be neutral towards a body that society isn’t neutral towards. So I would love for you to speak to that. And also kind of speak to like, so then, like, what does body neutrality mean to you?

Nia:
oh, my gosh, that cracks me up. Because I think I had put like, a story prompt or something in my stories that was like, like, let me know, I want to have conversations about this or something. And I had this conversation with this person in my DMs. And like, they recently got the book, and they sent me a picture. And they’re like, I really never would have considered that like this conversation would have like, ended up in a book. And I was like, probably didn’t either, but like, I turned it into a post. And then it went in the book because it just like, encapsulated, like such a real experience. Like how are we supposed to just like foster neutrality in the way that neutrality is kind of like, emblazoned across the internet? If society doesn’t like us, doesn’t want us here doesn’t support us doesn’t make space for us. How are we supposed to just be like, Oh, whatever, I’m fine. Like, when for some people were like, are actively hated by the world. And so for me, when I think about body neutrality, like I very much think of it as like, a way point and like a relationship, but like, I don’t think of it as like, there’s only one way to do it, which is so hard because I think a lot of people especially people with perfectionism in their fear of brain power, want like a an answer that will tell them like I’m doing this right? Or I’ve reached this point in my journey and really like you get to define what body neutrality looks like for you. For me, it kind of means like I’m not feeling super top of the world amazing in my body, but also not shitting on myself or shutting on myself and not like feeling horrible about my body. But also, maybe sometimes I do feel kind of not great about my body. And maybe there are days were like, I’m feeling myself and like, you know, want to wear something really fun, like I wore a dress to my book signing. And that was like a very intentional choice that day, no one really knew that except for me. But like, I was feeling very like femme, and like girly, and like, womanly and my power that day, which is something that I don’t often feel. And I think that that gets the chance to exist in neutrality towards my body. Also, just like taking care of my body and not feeling like annoyed about it, or maybe feeling annoyed about it, but not feeling super excited about it either. Like, I’m just like, oh, like one thing that I absolutely just like, is showering. But I actually like being in the shower, I just hate the like process of like getting ready to take a shower and then getting in there, but I’m cold in it. And I like having like what I call towel time afterwards. So that feels very like push and pull of like, oh, this is kind of icky. But also, there’s a good moment, and it all kind of just evens out. And I think that’s a lot of what neutrality is, for me, it’s a lot of like ups and downs and all arounds and you end up kind of just like in this experience of like just being neutral towards it and letting it happen.

Summer:
Yeah, it’s almost like ambivalence where there’s a bit of a range. But coming back to it sort of evens out, like you said,

Nia:
Yes, it really does. If you’re doing it like in a neutral way, I always tell people like shoot for body love if you want to. But if you don’t make that or if you don’t have that accessible to you, like there’s nothing wrong with you, you still get to have like a very fulfilling experience with your body.

Summer:
100%. Yeah, one of the things that you talked about, in your experience with eating disorder treatment is how they say like body image comes last. So what are your thoughts on that, like having gone through recovery, hovering, being like a mental health advocate now? So what do you think about that?

Nia:
That sounds very privileged to me, I think at the time that I heard it in treatment, I was like, Okay, well, I just won’t worry about it. Because, you know, in six years, and five days, like, it’ll get better, because they said it comes last and maybe by then I’ll be doing great. What I wish I had known was like actionable tools and steps that I could have put in the place at the beginning, middle and whatever and looks like of my recovery. Along the way will say like along the way that I could have been putting in place and actively doing and thinking about and challenging myself in because body image evolves throughout our life. Because if we wait until we’re like 80 years old to deal with, like our body image, or we wait to like, our chest sags or like we have some sort of ailment to like actually deal with it. Like, that’s not going to be that effective. So why would we do that with body image? Like preventive medicine exists? Why can’t like preventive mental health also exist? You know?

Summer:
Yeah, I was really surprised to hear that, like, I’m not super familiar with, like, you know, what happens in eating disorder recovery space. And so it was surprising to hear that because to me, it would seem like that should be part of the like, that should be enmeshed in the entire process. And that two things are interlocked, like, you know, eating disorders and body image, although I know you mentioned you know, when you your eating disorder first started when you were nine or 10 years old, it wasn’t connected to your body. But I think for a lot of people part of the recovery process, it’s absolutely connected to, you know, our body because so much of what’s keeping the eating disorder voice alive is anti fat bias and things like that.

Nia:
Right. And I also think, like, even if my like eating disorder wasn’t locked on to body image at the beginning, I still had some like, funky body relationship stuff from like, a very young age. I mean, how could we not living in the world that we do so like, even if it was like, we’re going to work on this, in second grade, we’re going to work on this in kindergarten, and we’re going to work on this and fourth grade and like, it just like becomes a part of who we are that we you know, work on feeling neutral towards ourselves in our bodies. Then if I did develop an eating disorder later on, I could like probably have like, either a faster recovery or maybe I wouldn’t have been as susceptible to like feeling those feelings and thoughts about my body. Really, I think it’s just preventative care.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s such a good point. I love the way that you explain that. They’re like we should be teaching this to kids. Kids like not when we’re not when they start to hate themselves, because then that, you know, like things have already started to change, like their beliefs have already started to change, but like as a way to build that resilience. Yeah, I love that so good. The last thing I want to ask you about is you talked about how eradicating anti fat bias benefits everyone. Can you speak to that?

Nia:
Yes, this is one of my favorite, my favorite things to talk about. And I always describe it as like a trickle down effect. And when you start at the top, and with like the smallest base, like if that’s just one person who is like the most marginalized person and Laurel and I don’t really think that marginalization works like that. But if you start with a group of people who are like super marginalized, maybe that means they’re disabled, and they don’t have a country of origin. And they are fat, and they are brown or have darker skin. And I mean, I feel like there’s so many different identities that go into that they’re like, all labeled, there’s like so many of them in my book, but if you work with that group to find a way to accommodate them, and give them space in this world, whether that’s, you know, seats that fit them and hold them and doorways that accommodate wheelchairs, which I don’t think we think about enough, and foods that meet their cultural needs and nutritional needs, and all of that if you are benefiting the small group of marginalized people, it’s going to benefit all the people beneath them or above them, or however you want to think of this watering down effect. And the people who may be just are disabled. And I don’t mean just as in not as important, but I mean only have disability as a target identity and people who are black, or people who are indigenous, maybe people who are both black and disabled, it only trickles down from there like it benefits everyone till you get to all the people who are living in a life of privilege even benefits them. And so when I say that, you know, people who are living in privileged bodies, show up at the doctor’s office and refuse to be weighed, because it’s not actually required for insurance like that benefits that small group of the most marginalized people. And when people who are in privileged bodies ask or require that there’s seating that fits their fat friends, that also benefits that most marginalized group and trickles down to everyone. If there’s a doorway that doesn’t allow people in wheelchairs to go through that benefits all different kinds of disabled people, not just people in wheelchairs, and it makes it more accessible to everyone I something that I do, it feels difficult at the time. But also, it’s not always painted on as I leave like accurate reviews. When I go places on Google, like I went to a coffee shop, I think like a month ago and their seating was like, like, if I had sat in one of those chairs, it probably would have broken or it would have been really uncomfortable. I would have been scared the whole time. I ended up sitting on like a couch. But I left a review saying this might not be the most friendly for larger bodied individuals, because these chairs are very flimsy and like likely to break and they responded like the owner responded to my review on Google and said like, Thank you for the thoughtful way that you left this review. And we will try to like make accommodations in the future. Like no one had to respond. It could have been like, oh, well, you shouldn’t have like, had to sit here. Like, it could have been so rude. But it was just like thank you for being thoughtful. And like leaving us this helpful advice. Like we can make a change. And that will benefit like the next fat person that goes there or potentially me if I go back there because they have waffles on the weekends. And I love waffles. And so I would like to be able to sit in a chair that’s comfortable while I eat my waffles. And so it benefits so many more people than just you. And I think that we need to have a more compassionate collective community understanding around the world around us.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s so well said thank you. So on that note, then where can people get your book? And where can people follow you and find more of you?

Nia:
Yes, the best place to find me is either on the interwebs at WWW dot nia patterson.com. And then also on Instagram at the friend I never wanted. That is another great place to find me and my Instagram links to like everything else. So yeah, that is probably the best.

Summer:
Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I’m so glad we got we made this work and I love your book. It’s so helpful for people like it’s definitely like a workbook. Lots of prompts, lots of things to think about and put into place and I think it’ll be extremely useful for people.

Nia:
Thank you.

Summer:
Yes, rock on. thank you so much for being here today. There are a lot of links in this podcast in terms of the various ways that you can connect with NEA and get a copy of their book. Go to summer innanen.com forward slash 290 to find all those links. Thank you so much for being here today. Rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.