She also talks about how fat phobia shows up at the dinner table, the influence of social media on how we feed our kids, the role of fathers, and how to raise kids that fight anti-fat bias and advocate for change.

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Summer:
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This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 258 and I’m joined by Virginia Sole-Smith, author of fat talk parenting in the age of diet culture, we’re talking about how our culture is fixated on both the health and therefore weight of children, as well as trying to help them be body positive and how these two things can flick. We’re talking about how anti fat bias shows up at the dinner table the influence of social media on how we feed our kids, the role of fathers in feeding children and how to raise kids that fight anti fat bias and advocate for change. You can find the links mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 258. Before we begin, I want to give a shout out to Ames 2.0 Who left this review from the bottom of my belly. Thank you I am only a few episodes into this podcast, but it’s already beginning to affect me and my body positively. I feel heard without ever having a communication with you or your guests keep up the inspiring connective work you’re doing. Thank you so much for leaving that review. I really appreciate it you can leave a review by going to Apple podcast search for eat the rules, then click ratings and reviews click to give it a review. You can also subscribe to the show via whatever platform you use. That certainly helps other people to find the work that we’re doing here as well. If you haven’t already grabbed the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. And if you’re a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles, get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap, I felt so lucky that I got to read a preview of fat talk parenting in the age of diet culture by Virginia soul Smith, I absolutely loved it. I cannot recommend it enough if you are a caregiver if you’re a parent if you have tiny humans in your life, or if you even just want to unravel some of your own relationship with food and how your parents potentially influenced you. And Virginia is such a good writer, she has such a good way of weaving in stories from all kinds of different families and covering like just so many topics that relate to our children’s relationship with their body as well as their relationship with food and things that we can really do to help them cultivate a more positive relationship with food on their body. The book comes out April 25. So I realized that this episode is coming out just over a month before the release of the book. But I did that for two reasons. One is that often it takes a while for people to listen to the new episodes because I have 258 that often people are starting back at I don’t even know what number not everyone listens to the new episode the week it drops. So I’m doing this now because I figured by the time we get to April 25 That will have built up to the Download level that is much higher as well. pre orders matters so much for authors. So if you are keen to read this book and I cannot recommend it enough, then send a pre order in so that it’ll arrive for you on April 25. And I’m sure Virginia would appreciate that as well. Okay, let’s get started here Virginia soul Smith is the author of fat talk parenting in the age of diet, culture and the eating instinct, food culture, body image and guilt in America. Her reporting on diet, culture, health and parenting has appeared in The New York Times Scientific American and many other publications. She also writes the popular anti diet newsletter burnt toast and host the burnt toast podcast. Let’s get started with the show.

Hello, Virginia. Welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me. It’s such a treat to be here. I’m so excited to have you on I love your book, fat talk. I cannot wait for for it to get into people’s hands, I think it’s something that every caregiver, every parent, every teacher, every educator, every health professional needs to read. As I was saying to you, before we started recording, I really read like every word in the book, I didn’t just skim it, I read it really in depth, because obviously my parents, so it just felt like it was speaking to me. And I just feel like it’s, it’s such an important resource. So I’m really excited to talk with you about some of the stuff that you speak to in this book today. I’d love for you to start the one that in the beginning of the book, you say, somehow, even as we’ve become so fixated on our kids spot on the body mass index, we’re also striving to teach them to love their bodies just the way they are. And I feel like that quote, really speaks to the whole kind of, like purpose of your book. Is this like dichotomy? So can you just speak a little bit more about like, what you’ve noticed what, and really like why you wanted to write this book?

Virginia:
Yeah, I mean, that is the starting point. For me with all of this with the book with all of these conversations with this work is, you know, after my first book came out, and I was having lots of conversations with parents, the thing I kept noticing in all of those conversations was that people were really anxious about eating disorders, they were really anxious about kids not loving their bodies, they were devastated when a five year old would say I’m fat, I don’t like my stomach, you know, when they would hear, which is what we’re hearing all the time, right, like younger and younger, these body anxieties manifesting, they would be horrified by that. And also, they wanted some children they wanted, you know, the thing I would hear would be, I can’t believe she feels that way. She’s not even fat, I can’t believe he’s worried about that. He’s not even you know, the BMI makes no sense. Like, if you saw him, he’s a thin, healthy, active kid. And I realized, we are never going to break out of this, we are never going to be able to do the real work we need to do to help kids feel good about the bodies they’re in, if we always have conditions around which bodies get to feel okay. And so we have to name and then start to unlearn the anti fat bias that underpins all of this, that’s the foundation, then we can start to think about what does it look like to work on loving your body is that the right goal is that even, you know, where we need to be focusing our energies? Because what we’re really seeing is this epidemic of kids not being able to feel safe in their bodies. And that’s because our definition of what’s a quote, good body is way too narrow.

Summer:
Yeah. So you use the word epidemic there. And I did want to ask you, because I feel like a lot of parents would have this question is like, but don’t we have a childhood obesity epidemic? Like, what’s, what’s your response to that? Or what did you learn when you’re writing the book?

Virginia:
It’s a totally understandable, really good question. Definitely also was my starting point, like, Okay, but what do we do about the fact that kids are bigger than they were today than they were a generation ago. And what I learned as I started researching, that is, number one, it’s not entirely clear that kids are bigger than they were a generation ago, we’ve always had fat kids, you know, we didn’t just invent them in the 90s. Like, this is, throughout history, humans have come in different shapes and sizes, and human diversity of body size is normal and natural. So that’s thing when we know too, that the way we’re measuring kids bodies has changed. In 2010, the CDC switched the categories on the pediatric growth chart. To add an obese category, I’m using that word in quotes. Of course, that’s a triggering word for folks. But they they basically reclassified kids. So everyone who was previously classified as at risk of overweight and overweight, moved into the overweight and obese categories. So we created an epidemic of children who enlarger bodies without actually like, like just by where we how we mapped them out on the scale. Overnight, a bunch of kids who had been simply quote at risk, which doesn’t sound great either, to be clear, still full of stigma. But you know, kids whose body size was not deemed a current problem suddenly became a current problem. So that’s another piece of it to understand is like some of the way we’ve been tracking this is, is with really bad data and really bad measurement tools. And we could also get into the many problems of BMI also underpinning all of that. The third piece of this is, even if it’s true, even if kids bodies are bigger than they were a generation ago, and certainly if you go by the CDC is data, you see those upward trends and body size. It doesn’t mean that the body size is the problem we need to solve. We can look at why that change has happened. It’s something to be curious about. And we can see you know, there are the theories that get trotted out all the time. Oh, our food supply has changed. We eat so much processed foods. Kids are on screens way more than they ever were kids don’t get enough activity. We Hear those conversations all the time? Well, we don’t talk about enough is that over the past 40 years, we have also been living under an onslaught of anti fat hatred. We’ve been living under an onslaught of public health messaging, all about shrinking our bodies, and trying to make a smaller, we have substantial research showing that one outcome of pursuing intentional weight loss is ending up in bigger bodies than you started in. So it’s very possible that the, quote, childhood obesity epidemic is an offshoot of this moral panic about kids body sizes. And if we stay focused on trying to make bigger kids into smaller kids, we are never going to see that change, we are never going to make progress because we are only reinforcing the same set of problems.

Summer:
Mm hmm. I feel like that’s the piece that’s always missing from these conversations, like obviously, not when you speak to it, but it’s like, is weight stigma like, because I’ve read different pieces on like, the AAP guidelines, which we’ll we’ll talk about later, but and I feel like that’s always like a low like, nobody’s I mean, you are, but that piece of it is always missing. And it’s like we can’t, you know, it’s not even it’s like a moot point, unless you bring that into the conversation.

Virginia:
Yeah, I mean, I don’t understand how you can talk about wanting to change kids body sizes, without also talking about the very clear harm that is caused when we try to change kids body sizes, like we are not lacking data on this anymore. We were for a long time. Researchers just didn’t want to look into this. You know, when I was reporting on these issues a decade ago, even if I talk to your standard, and again, using quotes, obesity researcher, and I said, What about stigma, I would have gotten the brush off like, well, yes, people’s feelings are important, but obviously this larger threat. And now that’s not how they answer the questions. They know that weight stigma is real. They’ve seen the evidence piling up. But their solution is still well, people wouldn’t experience stigma if they weren’t fat. And they can’t see the very inherent stigma of that sentence when it comes out of their mouth.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. And so like with that, you know, I feel like parents might still say, like, but what about, what about our children’s health? You know, like, is there a reason to sort of be alarmed about like, children’s health at this point in time, like, has, has it worsened? Or are we just using sort of these, you know, again, like relying on like what we’ve seen with with shifts in the BMI becoming sort of the barometer for that,

Virginia:
I think a lot of it is BMI, replacing a more nuanced definition of health. And so we’re pathologizing kids bodies that aren’t sick that aren’t, you know, just because they’re big, they must be problematic, they must be diseased, or on their way to X, Y, and Z diseases. So I think that is a big piece of it. I mean, I think we also have seen some shifts in overweight, linked health conditions in terms of like the trends of how they’re getting diagnosed, and the rates, they’re getting diagnosed that, again, you can unpack that and say, like, Well, is it because we have better diagnostic tools? And so we’re catching more things are, you know, is it that we’ve changed the way we screen what age we screen for these markers, so we’re catching stuff earlier, could all be part of it, we also know that eating disorders have increased in the same time period. So again, this effort to control this one thing has created this other problem, you know, is contributing to this other problem. So it’s, it’s really nuanced. And that’s the problem is when you talk about BMI, and you talk about, you know, oh, my god, kids can’t be fat, you’re stripping away all of that nuance. And then the other thing that we know is that all of the weight linked health concerns heart health, diabetes, you know, et cetera, et cetera, you can work on helping families, develop preventive strategies for those conditions, or manage those conditions, if they’re dealing with them. without ever talking about weight, you can be talking about lifestyle changes and diet changes in a like non stigmatizing health promoting way, and not focus on the scale at all, and see real gains. So in terms of like biomarkers, and things like that, and I, I also think we have to step back even from that and say, you know, really, in this country health is a resource, this is not something that people can all access the same way, we can’t all access the same, you know, access to physical spaces to move our bodies and healthy food and all of that. And so, you know, if you want to do some real good in terms of public health, there’s like a million different ways to attack the social determinants of health, and unlearning and attacking stigma is one of the primary ways we could be doing that. And that’s just not the approach we’re taking at all with the weights and check model.

Summer:
Yeah, it’s really interesting. Like this is a little bit of an aside, but I’m reading that book by Stephanie foo it’s like what my bones notes about complex PTSD and like her her sort of like recovery from it and she talks about how like trauma changes in the brain and therefore like can influence you know, like health outcomes and, and so yeah, we think about like, you know, experiencing like chronic bullying or weight stigma Alright, anything else? Like, we never really talk about or think about, like how that can then influence like health outcomes? Completely? Yeah. And it’s like, again, like just kind of missing this like giant piece of the puzzle. That’s must be so frustrating for you sometimes.

Virginia:
It can feel like how are we having to say this again? But you know what, it’s where we are. We’re saying it again. Happy to keep saying it. Yeah. And I feel like more people start to open up like I, you know, yeah, like we talked about sort of offline, just like certain people who have bigger platforms, sort of like, starting to realize these things, which is good. I’d love to shift gears and just talk about, like, you know, parents and parenting in general, because one of the things you talk about is just like how fatphobia shows up at the dinner table.

Summer:
So what are some of the ways that that you notice fatphobia showing up at the dinner table?

Virginia:
The most common ways I hear about our number one, parents worrying about which foods their kids are drawn to the deep discomfort a lot of parents have with how much children love carbohydrates, if we unpack that, and we don’t even have to unpack it very deeply, like this is not intensive work, you very quickly got to, I don’t want them to eat a lot of carbohydrates, because I associate eating too many carbohydrates with being fat. So you know, it’s a lot in the food choices. You know, the same narrative plays out around like processed foods, quote, processed foods versus, quote, Whole Foods, and like, which foods are good or bad, and all, you know, all of that, all of that being really fixated on steering kids away from certain ways of eating and towards other ways of eating? You know, you can say it’s concerned for health, but there’s absolutely almost always a pretty big nugget of fat phobia in there as well. So that’s one of the big ways, I think it also comes out, you know, often families tell me, they’re realizing it’s playing out in more subtle ways. Like, the way that kid in the straight size body is getting more access to treats, or the kid in the larger body is getting just like, not restricted in the like padlock on the cabinet way. But like, more of the questions are like, Oh, are you sure you need that are really, you’re hungry again, like, I can’t believe you just stay, you know, and that kind of thing. And so there’s this sort of subtle narratives that family is, you know, like one straight comments, not a big deal. But over time, kids are continually hearing my appetite is a problem, my appetite is concerning to people. And that gets very easily connected back to body size. And then it’s also the parents stuff, right? You know, like, if you are serving a family meal, and one parent is doing keto, or paleo and the kids want pasta, like you’re you’re navigating in real time how diet culture is impacting your family dinner. And again, it can be nowhere near as extreme as that. But parents. And this sounds very much like I’m blaming parents for getting this wrong. And I just want to be super, super, super clear that we are all working through this, we are all victims of diet culture. And we can all perpetuate diet culture. So we’re all in both roles. And it is really useful work to interrogate your bias and how it’s coming out at the dinner table. But you don’t have to feel a ton of shame or guilt around it. Because there are so many opportunities to do more learning and make progress. So I think it’s important to, you know, sort of approach this with curiosity and like, Oh, what, how does it feel when I say that? What reaction do I see from my kid? And not just like, just because I think otherwise, we’ll just get defensive. Right? We’ll just be like, you know, not want to look at it, because it’s painful to think that you’re screwing up your cat at the dinner table.

Summer:
Yeah, well, and I appreciate that you speak to the pressure and how a lot of it in like heteronormative relationships goes on the mom. Absolutely. And like these huge expectations to parents, like correctly. And this being like, you know, one of those pillars of parenting is like you thought the responsibility of like feeding the child predominantly goes on on the mother. And I see that with my clients like they, they sometimes feel like I’m screwing my kid up, because I’m not like, you know, perfect or whatever. And, or I’ve said this one thing about sugar, and it’s like, so even if you are unlearning there’s still like this expectation that we put on ourselves.

Virginia:
Yes. Yeah. I mean, that’s, I think that’s so true. I think I’m, I’ve seen that in my own parenting. And I definitely hear that from readers. You know, this, like, once you start to understand diet culture, there’s this instinct to want to fix it all right away, and do better completely and then be worried about every little instance of diet culture showing up in your kids lives and blaming yourself. And it’s like, no, no, we wait. That’s diet culture mentality that’s applying the same perfectionistic lens that we used to put to our dieting selves onto this and this is something different, and this is very much rooted in accepting that we are never going to get it right all the time. And that We have to really release, we just have to release a lot of expectations on ourselves and, and stop feeling like how our kids eat. And what our kids bodies look like, is a referendum on us as a parent and a person. And that’s really hard because our culture is completely set up to give us the other message, and we’re getting it all the time. You know, especially if you’re a parent in a fat body going to the pediatrician doesn’t feel super safe. Because not only are you going to be graded by how your kids doing, but your body’s going to be weaponized in that conversation, or it can be so yeah, there’s a lot of layers to this. And just understanding like, when you’re being held up to an unrealistic standard, and when you’re holding yourself up to that standard, can sort of help start to put some breathing room and I think,

Summer:
yeah, and it’s I mean, it’s, it’s really tough, because like you there’s just, you know, even like with one of the things I wanted to talk to you about actually, it was just like the influence of of social media, specifically like, like, kind of the more like accounts that that help parents with with feeding that is more like division of responsibility or intuitive eating aligned. And yet, I think that as you point out, like they sometimes they almost like sort of collude with diet culture. Yeah. What did you sort of what have you noticed about that?

Virginia:
Yeah, I mean, I call that kid food, Instagram, I think it’s, you know, I think it serves such a valuable purpose, right, because feeding kids is so hard. And it’s really easy to fill totally at sea. And so we look to influencers for and you know, you’ll get like great shortcut recipe ideas and great like, what do I pack in a daycare lunchbox like, that is an opaque mystery, before you have children. And here are these people handling you like photos that like map it out completely. So it completely got the drive definitely, as again, as a parent been, like, you know, pulled into like, Okay, this is a clear roadmap press, because there is no roadmap and it’s terrifying. And so you want a roadmap. But what I see a lot of these accounts doing is using the rhetoric of division of responsibility, or the rhetoric of intuitive eating, without having reckoned with anti fat bias at all. And I think it’s also a fair criticism of division of responsibility and intuitive eating to say that those models don’t necessarily reckon with anti fat bias, like that’s not baked into how they operate. It’s, I think, for a lot of us work that happens somewhat simultaneously, but it’s not a given. So if you only start with division of responsibility, you don’t necessarily pull in the other piece of that work. And I think, you know, maybe for parents, you know, I think there’s a lot of reasons why that might happen. But these accounts, especially if they’re very focused on picky eating, I feel like, really don’t attempt to reckon with that at all. And so, there’s a lot of focus on like, how can we get kids to eat as many different kinds of vegetables as possible. And the message that comes through, is like, and it’ll be like, through no pressure tactics, you know, like, like division of responsibility, like, you just serve a wide variety of foods, and then you sit back and say nothing and let your child decide what to have. But the problem is, is if your, quote wide array of foods is like, six different kinds of produce, and some like, you know, I don’t know, gluten free bread, or whatever, like, you know, if you’re still narrowing, what’s on the table, what can be offered, you’re still gonna get this pushback from the kid who’s not getting all their needs met who’s, you know, having to fight to get more access to the foods that do feel palatable and easier for them to eat? And so you’re going to have these power struggles come up, and then you’re locked into this idea, but no, but like, your plate has to look like a rainbow. And if I do put m&ms It has to be like three blue m&ms, like put in one corner, it’s a little, little xx little garnish to the plate, as opposed to like, I put a bag of m&ms on the table and my kids took what they want, you know, like that feels terrifying to them. So yeah, so it’s a lot of like being caught up into this statics and the performance of feeding kids as opposed to the reality of feeding kids, and not unpacking the biases that let us stay so focused on Oh, but we have to raise, we have to raise kids that eat super eclectically, but only of Whole Foods. And I mean, if you just like think that through like that’s not how most adults want to eat all the time. It’s a pretty limiting way to engage with food, it means that you like can’t ever stop from McDonald’s on a road trip. You can’t ever you know, like because you’re not going to get another lunch stop for a burger or whatever. Like there’s just order you can’t even just say like a burger sounds delicious. Today. That’s what I want to eat for dinner, without having to like, negotiate with yourself about how many types of produce you can get in around the burger. Like that’s diet culture, that’s straight up diet culture. And that’s what I think a lot of those accounts mostly inadvertently but sometimes more consciously, I think are our teaching parents to teach kids yeah, yeah. And can I just be honest that I do not have time to prepare a pomegranate for my child. The time I spend every morning just like scooping out all those little seeds. And it’s so important because you know, if my child eats six pomegranate seeds, they won’t want to snack again, forever.

Summer:
And it’s like, and I and I’m just I’m not like an arts and crafts parent, but I’m like, why are we blending arts and crafts with feeding? I just,

Virginia:
you know, I think about a lot of Casey Davis whose work I love on domestic care tasks, and she has a great post. That’s like a really beautiful laundry room. And it says this is a hobby. And I think it’s the same with the lunchbox says like, that is a hobby. And if that gives you joy to cut foods into little animal shapes, and you know, make the beautiful, crafty kid foods, like if that brings you joy, I am so happy for you to have that joy. But to imply that that is a standard we should all strive for. And that somehow we are letting down our kids or letting down ourselves if we don’t execute that is just wild. To me, it is wild.

Summer:
And again, the pressure comes back on generally like the mother

Virginia:
making little animal cutouts in the almond butter sandwich like you don’t, you don’t see that I feel that the men are not held to that standard.

Summer:
Yeah, and actually, that’s something I wanted to talk to you about. Because you do talk about the role of fathers or the sort of like abs, the role of father like the influence of fathers. And that’s something like that, that for me personally, like really, like stopped me in my tracks because I was like, wow, like so much of the time I think about my relationship, my disordered relate my past disordered relationship with food. And I think about how much of that was from my mother. But when I really think about it, that so much of that was actually from my, from my father. And literally like reading that part in your book, I was like, oh my god, I never even put those two things together. And all the years that I’ve sort of been reckoning with this, but fathers have a huge influence as well.

Virginia:
They do. And you know, you’re not alone for not having considered the role of your father, because 90% of research on feeding dynamics and eating disorders completely ignores fathers. I mean, it is so hard to find studies even done on fathers. And when they are it’s usually like, what is the experience of the man married to a woman with an eating disorder raising children, like it’s still kind of all through the lens of like, what the mother and the child are experiencing, and the dads like just there. And this is like a huge, huge, huge issue. And I mean, you see it in eating disorder treatment, like dads aren’t involved in the same way. And, you know, we’ll feel like they’re not really part of the process. And that’s really alienating and not great for division of labor in the home. Because the burden of doing something like family based treatment for an eating disorder for a kid is like brutal, and all consuming and like should be shared work. So there’s that piece of that. But it also means we’re really not reckoning with the influence dads are having when dads are dieting, and a lot of dads are dieting, and they might not call it that, right. They might call it counting macros or doing CrossFit or, you know, like there’s a different language around it intermittent fasting, there’s a different language, and there’s a different culture, but it’s still rooted in the thin ideal. It’s still rooted in tying morality to how we eat and body size. And it’s just as harmful for kids to be exposed to. So we really need more research on this, we really need more of an investigation of this both for kids and for men themselves, who are being really underserved by the eating disorder treatment community, like when men are struggling, they don’t have a script for it. They don’t know how to talk about it. Like the the interviews I did with the dads for that book, broke my heart in a way that talking to moms, you I mean, there were still heartbreaking conversations, but like, it was I would see these men just like almost unable to answer like I would say, you know, how did that make you feel? And they wouldn’t know how to answer the question. Because they didn’t have words. They didn’t have words for their feelings. They didn’t have, they didn’t know how to talk about any of this made them feel. Or they would just say something very quick contained to the topic and it just was like, Oh, just made me realize like we have really shortchanged men in terms of emotional vocabulary and, and resources. So that is a big part of it. Yeah, and it all ties back to these like really screwed up gender norms we have right where it’s all on women to do this. And yet, men will still often even though like I think with kids a big reason you don’t see dads as involved in the feeding is because women are conditioned to be the feeders and the family has a lot of the time which means we’re the ones who like do the research and get all up on like whoa division of responsibility or kid food Instagrammer you know, what is the thing going to be? And the dads haven’t done that same research. So then they might come in with just like the method they grew up with, like clean your plate or you know, like no dessert until you finish your back clay and that’s harmful in a different way. And then you have like both these things is playing out at the dinner table and the poor kid is like, I just want to eat. Like, what? What’s happened?

Summer:
Yeah, man, it’s a mess. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like there’s a huge increase in the number of men dieting, because it’s under the guise of performance. And yeah, you certainly speak to a lot of families in your book, where are you see that play out? And yeah, it’s like, like, I mean, I suppose the answer is like, we need them to read your book. And like, really start to you know, spend, like, spend more time like doing their own unlearning process?

Virginia:
Yeah, yeah. And I think like, you know, as a feminist, I sort of preclude the idea of like, oh, we have to be inviting the men in and making spaces because I’m like, aren’t women doing enough fucking emotional labor around men? Honestly, honestly, like, this is not our work. And also like, this is all of our work. And so, you know, I don’t know a good pathway forward there. I think if you’re hetero women, married to a hetero man, and you are seeing this dynamics play out like it is not your job to fix him, it is not your job to like, hand him back those problems, it is not your job to get all up in that. But you definitely deserve support. Because whether or not he’s willing to do this work, like you have to be eating alongside it. And that’s really hard.

Summer:
Yeah, it is really challenging. I did want to talk to you. I know you recently wrote in the New York Times about the new AAP guidelines, I’m in Canada, so different.

Virginia:
Refer to this country earlier. And that was so United States, Central.

Summer:
We have people, we have people listening from all around the world, but most actually, most of people are in the US anyways, but I mean, I feel I feel like regardless, like like, these, these types of things have a ripple effect every country because it’s obviously up here. Like it’s still it still makes news and influence. And so with those new guidelines that recommend more stringent sort of tactics and measures for weight control for kids, like what’s your advice to parents who are, you know, going to take their child to the doctor or the pediatrician, how can they kind of arm themselves to go into these conversations so that their child is not going to be you know, exposed to like harmful treatment or stigma.

Virginia:
So it’s really tough, because this is going to play out differently for different parents based on your varying levels of privilege. And I want to really hold space for the fact that if you are a parent of color, if you are a fat parent, queer, disabled, etc, when you walk into a doctor’s office, you are already expecting to encounter a wall of bias for so many reasons. And now this is like a new added level. And you shouldn’t have to be doing all this goddamn work to get a pediatrician to treat your child. Like it’s ridiculous. So there’s that piece of it. And I think like, initially, you know, where I started as a privileged white lady was like, Well, my kids just not getting on scales at the doctor’s office anymore. Great, I can just like take this out of the conversation. And I can write because I have the right to decline weights, I have the right to say we’re not going to talk about BMI, and weight with my child present in the room, you know, there’s like all these tactics you can use. But that only works if you have the privilege where the doctor is going to respect that decision. And so that is one way to go. If that’s available to you. That’s great. Please also consider that your privilege means you can maybe do more advocacy work around this issue, like invite the conversation. So you can explain to the doctor, why you don’t want to talk about weight, again, not in front of your kids necessarily, but like, you know, is there a way for you to do some, some advocacy there, because you’re a thin parent or an otherwise privileged parent, who they will listen to. But some stuff that I think can work for anyone is, you know, you don’t have to agree in the moment to any treatment or medication, you can say, I’d like to think about that. We’ll discuss that as a family. Do you have some information I can take with me, I need to look into that more? Do you have some resources, you’d suggest a check out, don’t let yourself sort of get swept up in the moment of feeling like you have to commit to them. You don’t have to, and just like create a little bit of breathing room where then you can go home and sit with that and look at it and decide like absolutely not where I have questions or whatever thing that’s useful for everybody. If you can bring an advocate like someone with you, like a friend or a family member who can help who can be a witness to what’s happening, who can take notes, help you remember your questions, because it can be so stressful in the moment to think of what you want to ask. And then the other thing I would say is if you know, if the doctor starts down a path you’re not comfortable with about wait with your kid present, you know, they’re talking in a really shaming way about their body. They’re pushing weight loss. What matters the most in that moment is what your kid hears you say. So the doctor can definitely cause harm with all of that and for sure, if you end up on one of Those drugs and you know, like, there’s high potential for harm. But everyone I’ve ever interviewed who has like a doctor’s appointment as part of their origin story for disordered eating, it’s the combination of what the doctor said, and what the parents or caregivers did not say. And so you having a couple of phrases in your back pocket, like I trust their body, I’m not worried about this, which I think can be deployed in a very diplomatic way. And not necessarily, like start a big fight between you and the doctor. But just like, you know, I really trust their body, I’d like to give this some more time. Before we get worried about that, you know, we need to think about that I want to start from a place of trusting and honoring their body, that’s so important for your kid to hear. Because then whatever the doctor saying, they know that you don’t see it as a problem. And so then they don’t have to see it as a problem. So I think that’s one of the most important pieces is just like thinking about how to center your child in the conversation and what they’re going to take away from it.

Summer:
Mm hmm. That’s so good. That’s so useful. And I really appreciate that. Yeah, the rule, like what you say, is going to be the thing that yeah, it matters so much more. Yeah, yeah. So he was talking about sort of, like sheltering kids or, or, you know, having these conversations with kids. One of the things I appreciated that you speak to in the book is how the goal really isn’t to like shelter kids from anti fat bias. I mean, obviously, it would be great if that just didn’t exist in this world, you’ve left that for us. Rather, it’s to teach them to be discerning and to to advocate for change, and I in so I really love that because I think sometimes it’s like, well, we can’t let them off that watch that TV show, or we can’t let them do this particular thing. And so yeah, I just love for you to kind of speak to how how we can help kids to be able to combat these messages and become discerning.

Virginia:
Yeah, I think we have to recognize that, of course, you want to protect your kid from everything, it would be great if they never experienced hateful statements about their body or anyone else’s body like that really is the ideal, something we can aspire to. And we also know that kids experiencing difficult things in a loving, supportive environment breeds resilience, like builds skills, and we want them to have these skills because like, so many things in life are gonna be hard. And, you know, if we don’t, if we’re just constantly kind of keeping them in a little bubble, we’re not actually preparing them to be out in the larger world. And that, like, put it away, put it away, like don’t expose them like that is, again, a diet culture mentality showing up in this work where, you know, it’s it’s like the same mindset as I can’t let sugar in my house. I’ll never buy Oreos, because we’ll eat them all, if we get them. You know, if your concern is like, I’ll never let Tiktok in my house, because we’ll never stopped looking at weight loss influencers, like it’s somewhat of the same mindset. And so it’s just useful sitting with that. So yeah, it’s much more important, because tick tock, unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be going away, or it will be replaced by something equally, Soul killing, and occasionally wonderful, you know, but our kids are going to have to navigate all these different kinds of foods, beliefs about foods, all these different platforms with messages about bodies. So using these moments, and I mean, even as young as like your three year old watching Peppa Pig, and they keep talking about Daddy Pig’s body. And Peppa makes bad jokes about Daddy Pig all the time. I mean, even that early, it’s starting to do the work of like, I really don’t love how they’re talking about Daddy Pigs body. What’s wrong with having a big tummy, I love a big tummy. And just inviting your kid to start questioning that and think critically about that. And, you know, I’ve been doing this for a long time. My older daughter is nine and a half and four years, I would have said, like, doesn’t really seem to be penetrating. Like, I would kind of get like, Yeah, I know mom, like press play again. Like whatever. But I am starting to see like she came to me the other day, she was playing an iPad game about penguins. It’s like a game where you populate an island of penguins. I don’t speak video games. But, you know, it’s definitely a children’s game about penguins, where she is like putting hats on. And then there’s like an ad break every 15 minutes or whatever on the game. And the ad was for weight loss pills. And she was like, What am I seeing? And I was like, What do you think you’re saying? And she was like, why is this on a children’s game? I am a child I should not see. And like just like completely named at all. I was like, Look, Mom, it says it says expert approved who’s the expert that approved this and like, like, you know, every time the ad comes up, now we just laugh about it. And she like, notices some other detail about it. That’s like, nonsense. You know, like, What do you mean? They they’re saying they’re like 100% effective, like, what are they affected by like, every piece of it, she’s deconstructing. So of course my knee jerk. Instinct was like, we have to get this game off your iPad. I don’t want you playing this stuff. But I’m now like, well, look at all the great learning we’re doing. You know, this is useful. This is As the skill set I want you to be building so Okay, here we are.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah, that’s, that’s so great. I love that.

Virginia:
And parenting is like, that’s like one moment, one good moment and a week of crappy parenting. Just to put that into context, and I’m not perfect in many other respects, but this one I feel good about. You gotta count those wins.

Summer:
I know, I know. Sometimes I think about like posting stuff with my son with food. And then I’m like, no, like, because I just feel like then it just seems like I do things. Right. And I definitely do it already on time. The odd time. I will. Yeah, it’s not easy.

Well, this has been amazing. I could speak to you forever. And I just I, you know, I hope this encourages more people to go out and get your book. You really I love your style of writing how you weave in personal stories from all the interviews, like so many interviews that you did with different families. Thank you. And yeah, I was telling one of my friends, I was like, I just think that you’re like such a great writer, I think because you’re a journalist, so you write really well. Thank you. So everyone should get it. Hopefully this encourages you a little bit more. But other than that, where can people find you?

Virginia:
Yes, well, definitely preordering fat talk or depending when you listen to this, just purchasing fat talk, parenting in the age of diet culture would be lovely. You can also subscribe to my newsletter burnt toast which is a weekly essay about diet, culture, anti fat bias and parenting. And we also have a podcast, the burnt toast podcast, which is conversations about more of the same. So if you’re into all of that, and you can get all of that in Virginia soul smith.substack.com And then I’m on Twitter, Instagram, and begrudgingly Tiktok at V underscore Sole-smith.

Summer:
I’m still not on Tik Tok.

Virginia:
Not great. I don’t recommend. So my mate made me made a good decision. I love yourself stock to just for people. Yeah, I love it. It’s so good. It’s like well, and I always open and read so yeah, I love hearing that. Yeah, it’s really good. Thanks. I cut you off there though. What were you gonna say about tick tock, tick tock. Oh, just that it’s terrible. I mean, I may not be on it forever. But But promotion requires these things of us.

Summer:
amazing. Well, thank you so much for all of your time today. It’s been it’s been wonderful as always, oh, summer so good to talk to you. Thank you so much. Rock on.

Thank you so much for being here today. You can find all the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 258. You can also listen to my previous episode with Virginia at summer innanen.com forward slash 165. It’s episode 165 called feeding kids intuitively with Virginia so Smith, and definitely go out and get your copy of fat talk parenting in the age of diet culture preorders matter. The book comes out April 25, but you can order it now. Thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.