We also talk about the difference between body neutrality and body liberation and how we can all strive for collective liberation.

Don’t forget, I’m on iTunes! You can be one of my kick-ass subscribers. Also, I would be SO GRATEFUL if you took 2 minutes to leave a review. Go here -> click “Reviews and Ratings” and then “Click to Rate”.

Summer:
This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance. With personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group. This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 265 and I’m joined by Chrissy King, author of the body liberation project. We’re talking about Christy’s journey towards body liberation, how she was seeking proximity to whiteness, through her weight loss pursuits. The difference between body neutrality and body liberation and how we can all strive for collective liberation. You can find the links mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 265. I want to give a shout out to Savannah who left this review. Brilliant, incredibly helpful, encouraging podcast I get so much out of each episode. Thank you for doing this important work. Thank you so much Savannah. I really really appreciate that Savannah from Canada Hill. You can leave a review for the show by going to Apple podcasts search for eat the rules. Then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. If you want a free guide, you can get the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. And if you are a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles so if you’re a coach, a dietician a therapist and educator, a personal trainer etc. Then grab the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap. As always, you can just go to the body image coach.com to find any of these things. Chrissy was on the show back in 2020, I believe it was episode 157. I will link to that in the show notes. And it’s such a pleasure to have her back on the show, again, celebrating her new book, The Body liberation project, which I genuinely really loved. And it’ll be going up to the top of my list of books that I recommend to people because I just thought it was such a wonderful blend of personal stories and as well as the important concepts while really speaking to the social justice aspect of this work and giving a lot of questions to help you move from principle to practice. So I definitely recommend this book. If you’re looking for another one to read. I know there’s so many good ones, but I think that you’re really going to love having this one on your bookshelf. Christy King is a writer, speaker, educator, and former strength coach with a passion for creating a diverse and inclusive wellness industry. She empowers individuals to stop shrinking start taking up space and use their energy to create their specific magic in the world. Let’s get started with the show. Hello, Chrissie, welcome back to the show.

Chrissy:
Oh, thank you for having me. Summer. I’m so excited to be here and chat with you for a little bit today. Yeah.

Summer:
So tell everybody a little bit about the body liberation project. And like what inspired you to, to write the book?

Chrissy:
Yeah, absolutely. So the body liberation project is about understanding diet culture, or the intersection of racism, and then eventually, like how we cannot move towards body liberation. It’s also through this frame of like collective liberation, and just really talking about body image and the intersection of race and gender and how that affects our ability to feel good in our bodies. And what inspired me to write this book is my own personal journey with body image struggles over the years. And then you know, as I’ve worked through some of those issues and move towards liberation, I’ve seen how much it just like really freed up my mental capacity and just saying so many aspects of my life and I really just desire for all of us to have true freedom to exist in our bodies, free of harm, but then also just like free of obsessing and you know spending all of our mental capacity Trying to shrink ourselves.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I love all the stories that you mentioned throughout, like, it’s sort of been like almost part memoir, and in a way, and I found, you know, just like the extremes that you go to so relatable for my own personal story. Like, it’s just like, it’s wild, right. One of the things I would love you to talk about is your experience obtaining, like the quote unquote, perfect body. Yeah, so

Chrissy:
I think, you know, as many of us believe we have this idea that like being thin is the thing that’s going to bring us happiness, right. And I think that’s one of the lies of diet culture that are all the best things happen on the other side of fat loss, we, you know, find the pardon of our dreams, a job or our dreams, we, we feel so good every single day, and our bodies are just so full of confidence. And so I spent a lot of time chasing that like I idealized body that I had in my mind. And then when I reached what would be considered that goal, quote, unquote, goal body, I was in the thinnest body I was in had ever been in as an adult, I was the most physically fit and like, quote, unquote, in shape and strong if I had been as an adult, and yet still, I was the most miserable I’d ever been, actually. And so it’s like, when I thought that I’d reach this ideal body, and I’d be so happy, it actually turned into like me always thinking, there’s something else that I needed to do in terms of my body, I just need to lose a couple more pounds, or I need to change this part of my body, I need to fix this part of my body. And so really, I was just probably more miserable than I had been before, I had a worse relationship with food than I’d had before. I had a worse relationship with exercise that I’d had before. And so it was really this point of me realizing that, you know, all of the things I believed would be would be the source of happiness, weren’t the things that were going to make me happy at all?

Summer:
Yeah. And like, was there one particular moment that was kind of like a turning point for you? Where you were just like, I’m done with this? Like, was that one of those moments? Or was that a series of moments? Like? How did you find like, the way out? I guess is the question.

Chrissy:
Absolutely. I always talk I talked about this in the book is my rock bottom moment. And that moment was I was again, the thinnest I’d ever been as an adult. And I had a an even when I was like, in that place that I was so obsessed with everything, like counting my macros, counting my calories, making sure I didn’t miss workouts like that was my dominant thought process of all time. And socializing or going on trips or anything like that would take me out of this place of complete control was like anxiety producing for me. And I had this I was married at the time and I had to go to like a weekend little family gathering with my in laws, and some extended family. And I was like, I had so much anxiety leading up to it, because I was like, No, I have a whole weekend like three days where I’m going to be not at home, and not be able to control everything I eat. And so what I did was I packed this like many of my meals as I could for the weekend. And we had this day, we were at a waterpark with all my extended family. And it’s so ironic because I was at this waterpark, I’m wearing a swimsuit the whole time I’m worried about like, do I look fit enough of my swimsuit, and like trying to second my stomach even more, even though I was already super thin. And people were like, I remember distinctly like people, strangers, like complimenting me on my body, and like asking me how I worked out. And so like, I’m getting this external validation. But at the same time, I’m like, feeling miserable about how I look still. So we took a break for lunch, and we go to this restaurant, and I stay in the car and pull out my little sad Tupperware meal that had been like sitting in the cooler all day. And it was just like this bad little meal. And so everyone else proceeds to go inside the restaurant. And my partner’s family was like, Why isn’t she coming inside. And he was like, Oh, she just wants to eat healthy. So she brought her own food. And they were supportive of my journey. So they asked the restaurant if I could bring my food in. And I did. But it didn’t take me very long to eat this little meal. And so then I was just sitting at the table watching everybody ordered food, whatever they felt like eating and the food’s coming. And it smells really good. And people are like asking me for offering me like, do you want salmonella? No, no, I’m good. I’m not I am not hungry. But the whole time. I’m just sitting there feeling like this is such a sad and miserable existence that I can’t even be present in this moment. And just like have a meal with my family. Because I’m so obsessed about how many calories I’m eating. And I was like an already I’m in a very thin body and I’m still not happy with it. And I realized like, I’m literally going to spend the rest of my life like this. And this is completely miserable.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, I relate so much to that. I remember like inputting the number of cherry tomatoes. I’ve eaten into a spreadsheet.
I feel I’m like, I’m gonna have to do this for the rest of my life. Like, no, and it still didn’t wake me up in that moment. But like, it’s yeah, you have these kind of epiphanies where you’re like, wait a minute. This is this is a forever thing if I want to, you know, maintain this like unattainable body, this body that I’m not meant to be and, and it’s so wild. So

Chrissy:
yeah, absolutely. And it’s just like, Yeah, I’m going to do this for the rest, I’m going to do this for the rest of my life, I am going to for the rest of my life and put everything I’m eating into some type of tracker, and make all of my life decisions based around what I can and cannot eat is like not a weight. That’s not even really living when you when I think back to what I’m like, I wasn’t even truly experiencing life. Yeah,

Summer:
exactly. Yeah, it’s like, because it’s like a full time job. And you’re just you’re not present at all. So I’m obviously like, a massive piece of, of the book and of of your work is, is speaking to the intersection of racism, the the influence of, of white supremacy, really how that’s kind of like the overarching umbrella. And diet culture is sort of a result of that. And I’d love you to speak to just your own sort of, like, when you realize that because I know in the book, you tell the story of like, going to the supermarket and seeing the picture of Pamela Anderson. And that really being like, you know, the standard of, of beauty. And so I’d love for you to speak to like how you were able to come to a place where you’re able to kind of like connect the dots to recognize that your pursuit of thinness was really to pursue whiteness, like to get a closer proximity to whiteness, not pursue it, but get closer to it.

Chrissy:
Absolutely. So I think that after I decided, like, okay, there’s something I need to resolve here around body image, it really sent me down a personal journey of trying to like, you know, understand, like the impact of diet culture, like what that actually really means, like, that wasn’t a term when I was like, really into a culture, I wasn’t even cognizant of the fact of like, what diet culture is. And so just like down a journey of like, trying to, like really learn and understand and I read fearing the black body? Well, no, actually, the first book I read is the body body is not an apology by Sonya, Renee Taylor, which really helped me start to think about just like the impact of race on the way that we see our bodies. And living in a society where Eurocentric standards of beauty are the norm, how the impact of race like affects our ability to feel good in our bodies, I think her work was the first that really helped me start to think in that way. And then I read fairy, the black body by Dr. Sabrina strings. And after Sabrina strings work is really impactful. And also like really gets to the core of the intersection of like diet, culture, fat phobia, and racism. So she talks about historically how we even got to this place, where body thin bodies are considered the ideal bodies. And I think if we think back in history, there’s been times when living in a larger body was seen as a sign of prosperity, and wealth and is a good thing. And then we come to this point in history and where we’re like now, demonizing larger fat bodies. And so her work talks about the fact that, you know, this idea that being a larger body, the inception of that concept really goes back to slavery, when you’re trying to create this racial hierarchy of which bodies are valuable and worthy and deserving of respect. A lot of enslaved people were in larger bodies, more muscular bodies, due to a lot of factors, one of them being like working in the fields. And so that’s where this idea that I want to be. And it became associated with gluttony, laziness, lack of motivation, stupidity, all of these things. And so during that time period, like in the desire to say, I don’t want to be anything like black bodies, is where this idea of being in a thin body became the idea and also became associated with like moral virtue, and the spirituality even. And so that’s where the inception of like diet, culture and fat phobia and racism started. And then we just like, have never really deviated from that. And so, you know, if I read that, and like, connected the dots, I’m like, Oh, of course, like, these are all tools of white supremacy and the tools of the patriarchy. And I think this is like, you know, so much of the work I do rather it’s around body image, or just talking about like, creating an anti racist wellness industry is like, one of the overarching themes is that white supremacy is harming all of us. Yes, it’s harming some of us more than others. But diet, culture and body image are issues that we all deal with, but it is all stemming from the systems of oppression, white supremacy being the overarching system.

Summer:
Yeah. And so when you were able to, like connect those dots, like did it sort of help you reflect on your own personal journey and be like, Oh, like this is, this is why I was really, you know, engaging like this. It was really like to get greater privilege, greater access, you know?

Chrissy:
Yes, absolutely. And I think one of the things I talked about in the book is that, like the first school I went to, when I was like, in third grade, I was the only black kid in my class, it was only other two black kids in school, my brother, my sister. And so I saw myself not and I didn’t see myself reflected in anyone who looked around like anyone around me, I was also five, eight in third grade, I was much bigger physically than the rest of the kids too. And so I realized in hindsight that my desire for a thinner body was really just my desire for proximity to privilege and proximity to whiteness, in the sense that like, it felt like a like a standard of beauty, right? So If I can’t be all these other things, but the one thing I can be is I can be thin.

Summer:
Yeah. Wow, wow, that’s so powerful. And so one of the other things you talk about is, I’m just going to quote your book here. But you say, it’s easy to say that the patriarchy is responsible for our body image issues, because that puts much of the blame on men, but it’s often far more difficult to point white supremacy is the culprit, because that doesn’t absolve white women of their participation in the system. I’d love you to speak to that. If you’re if you’re willing to,

Chrissy:
of course, yes, like patriarchy is a part of the problem, of course, but like white supremacy is the bigger issue. And I think So oftentimes, when we think about even the concept of like white feminism, right, and like who, what we’re talking about dismantling systems, like, the goal of dismantling any system is that we are freeing those of us who are most marginalized among us, right. And so when we think and speak to only body image issues as a tool of the patriarchy, like we can just totally place the blame on men. But when we talk about dismantling white supremacy, that also includes white women as well. And the work of dismantling white supremacy is an all aspects of our lives not just in our bodies, right? It’s a it bleeds into every area of our lives, I would say that white supremacy is the air we breathe. And so when we’re talking about body image issues, and we’re talking about dismantling systems of oppression, that is making it difficult for all of us live in our bodies, we have to be talking about all of our participation and the ways in which all of us are complicit within the system. And one of the things I go into in the book is around the body positivity space, which you know, originally, the body positivity space was founded by fat black women, because they didn’t see themselves represented as beautiful, beautiful within mainstream society. And then we look at modern day, body positivity space, mainstream body positivity has really been co opted in a lot of ways by thinner body, white women has become like a very much focused on like embracing your cellulite and embracing your flaws. And that social justice aspect is mostly missing for the most part. And again, it’s in a lot of ways, like, left out the people that the very people who started the movement for themselves. And so I think, what I’m talking about why it’s important for us to point to white supremacy as the overarching issue is because there are many ways even within the body positivity space, that white women have been complicit within the system. And I think it’s important that we recognize those ways. And I always say body positivity is not about just like loving your body, it’s about making sure that the most marginalized among us are able to exist free apart within their bodies. And we are all responsible for that.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, totally. And like I think, you know, there’s, there’s like a multitude of factors, why mainstream body positivity misses it, I feel like, like a piece of that, obviously, is like just people’s own discomfort, like or, you know, people’s fragility, but also like, the fact that it would likely repel people if they talked about it, like other white people, and therefore, like their brand, and, you know, like their monetary gains would be sacrificed,

Chrissy:
right? Yeah. And I speak to that in the book as well. Because it’s like, it’s so easy to say, I’m going to be anti racist, or I’m going to dismantle white supremacy. But when we’re talking about those things, practically speaking, we cannot dismantle something without sacrifice. Yeah. And if you’re used to being in a position of privilege, equity sometimes feels like oppression when it’s not. And so, like, that’s why it’s like, it’s easy to say you’re gonna do it, but when the what I always say like, what, when you come up with something that requires you to give something up, whether it’s a financial opportunity, and monetary opportunity, whether it is like really speaking about these things in a way that may make people uncomfortable, it’s like, what we actually do in those moments is how we’re actually dismantling white supremacy. It’s not so much about reading the book, and then just saying, cool, I’m being anti racist. It’s about how am I living in in practice. And then the other part of that is like, within the body positivity space, there’s often like a hyper focus on self love, like if you just love yourself more, that will fix things. And it’s like, I talk in a lot of detail on the book about why I think self love is really important. But at the same time, I’m also really clear that self love does not absolve us from experiencing harm in the world. And so if we’re only talking about self love as the anecdote for body shame and body oppression, that does not protect from the real experiences we’re going to have in the world. And moreover, it puts the onus on the individual like, right, individually, you need to fix the problem with yourself, and then you will be able to thrive in this society, versus saying now there’s these really harmful systems that we need to dismantle because they’re preventing all of us from being able to thrive in this society.

Summer:
Yeah, totally. That’s so well, sad. Do you feel like it’s changing at all? Or do you feel like it’s just kind of like, what do you think about mainstream body positivity? I guess. Do you feel like that’s changing at all or do you feel like it’s just kind of stuck?

Chrissy:
I thought it full stagnant right now, I think, um, I think that we over the past few years, especially post George Floyd, I think we started to have more conversations. But I still feel like it’s a little stagnant right now. And I think why I feel that way. I think, again, post George Floyd era, like everyone in the wellness space, in particular, I felt like was like awakened to racism in ways that we hadn’t been like, it wasn’t like people didn’t actually know before, but I think we weren’t having those conversations before. And so we started having the conversations more. And I think there was like this renewed like energy around living in anti racist life, but then I just spoke to, it’s like, when you really want to live with anti racist life, it requires so much more than us than just saying you want to do it. And I think we’re kind of stuck there right now. Because the realities of dismantling systems is that it is really challenging and does require a lot from us, personally, some of us more than others. And I think that a lot of people like the idea of dismantling Butlin, practically what that mean through your life personally, and not necessarily interested in that part. Yeah.

Summer:
And you talk about, I mean, there’s a lot of stories in the book about just people that you interacted with who, you know, in the wellness space, who really wanted to engage with you, but then also like, it’s like, you know, they can talk the talk, but not walk the walk, so to speak. Yes. And yeah. And so I suppose, like, that is also something that you must bump up against all the time as well.

Chrissy:
Yes, too much, unfortunately. And I think, you know, yeah, it’s just, it’s basically what you said, it’s easy to talk the talk, it’s more difficult to walk the walk, but that is required when we’re talking about actually like living an anti racist life and dismantling systems.

Summer:
Yeah. So I want to talk to you about like, just your definition of body liberation, I’d love you to explain the difference between body liberation versus like, body neutrality or acceptance. How would you how would you? How would you sort of define the difference between those two things?

Chrissy:
Sure, I get this question a lot. So and these are like the way that I frame and I’m sure other people have their own definitions. But when I’m thinking about body positivity, it’s really just like I said, it’s a movement that was created by a fat black women, but modern day mainstream, I just say body positivity is really a space that focuses on loving and appreciating and respecting your body regardless of shape, size, and knowing that we’re all worthy and deserving of respect. And like a simplest definition, right. And I think that body positivity can be a really great entry point for all of us and thinking about our bodies differently. And I know for sure, body positivity is a space that started me on this journey, right. So I think there’s a lot of shortcomings within modern body positivity, spare mainstream body positivity, however, I do think it’s like a great place for us to start, and then moving towards body neutrality. You know, I think one of the things I talk about with body positivity too, is like a lot of the information that we get from time, it’s very much like, look in the mirror and say, these positive affirmations, and it’s like, okay, but if you don’t believe any of those things to be true, like looking in the mirror and saying those things aren’t helpful for most of us, practically speaking. And so moving towards body liberation, body liberation and body, I’m sorry, neutrality is more of a space of like, listen, I, I don’t love my body. I don’t necessarily love what I see in the mirror. But I can accept that this what it looks like right now. And I can choose to be neutral about it, meaning like, instead of saying disparaging comments about my body, I can just say this is the body that I exist in today. Sometimes there’s a focus on like, within body neutrality, sometimes there’s a focus on like, what my body can do versus what it looks like, which I think can be helpful for some it can also can fall into like the space of ableism as well, but really is just like, How can I respect that this is what my body looks like today? And how can I be neutral about it right now you’ve been trying to fit that I love it. I’m just saying this is the body existed. And moving towards liberation, when I talk about body liberation, when I’m talking about is this real understanding that number one, I guess the first thing I’ll say about body liberation is that when I speak about liberation, the goal is not that any of us will ever get to the point where we look in the mirror every day and love everything that we see about ourselves, I don’t think that’s realistic for any of us. So for me, body liberation is about understanding that essence. And my core, the body that I’m residing in is truly just like a vessel that it’s allowing me to have this human experience, right, it doesn’t make me who I am, is just the vessel that is allowing me to have this experience that I’m having, and that every single one of us are inherently worthy, because we exist not because what we look like, and it’s also about this true understanding that you know, understanding the systems that would have us at war with ourselves, but at the same time, learning to lean lean into joy and appreciation in the party that we have today. With a true understanding that we’ll you know, bodies are designed and created to change and that we will have, you know, hundreds of different innovations of our bodies from the time we’re born, to the time we passed away. And so how can we learn to love and embrace every iteration of the body we have because we will have so many different iterations of them.

Summer:
Yeah, I love it. I love I love how you talk about like, yeah, just like being it’s, it’s about the essence of who you are. And like that you are I forget who you quote, but talking about it just you being like magic.

Chrissy:
Yeah, I’m Stephanie Chen. She has this amazing quote that says our body is just the keeper of our magic. And if that’s not like the most true thing that we can say about our body, and I feel like this is the vessel that is allowing us to fulfill our soul’s purpose, whatever that is, reach everyone Every one of us, it’s just the vessel that allowed us to do that.

Summer:
Yeah, I love it so beautiful. And for yourself on your own journey, like, what would you say was one of the more important steps that you took to move you across that spectrum?

Chrissy:
I think for me, it was the realization that number one, I could spend the rest of my time and my energy in this lifetime focus on something about my body. And I could literally do that for the rest of my life. But I would would like be such a tragedy to spend, like the best times of my life focusing on my body. I think that when I really realized that, and I was like, I’m having these experiences, but I’m not really present. Because all I’m thinking about is what I look like, and where other people thinking about me. And I’m actually missing out on the experience of life, I’m missing out on the joy of life. And I think that when I realized that, that was the thing that was most impactful for me to say, I want to move towards a different experience, because I am going to miss out on all the best parts of my life, focusing on my body on this vessel, and the thing that I know is going to change anyways. And it’s like, no matter how much I try to control it, it’s going to change because it was designed to do that. And so instead of trying to spend some energy, try not to change it into like, try to, you know, stop the natural process of life. I want to learn to embrace it in all of the student variation iterations, because that’s what it was supposed to do. Like, I can’t stop the reality of what a body is going to do.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. And being in my 40s, like, I totally, like, you just got to a point where you’re like, yeah, no, there’s no, you’re aging, like you’re aging out of beauty standards, like there’s no choice. So you, you have to, like really make make a conscious decision to be okay with it.

Chrissy:
Because it’s going to happen. And like, you know, I think it’s so hard because we live in a society that does not value age, as I once did, but like, what a beautiful thing to age like to still be here. You know, I hope if I’m here when I’m at still, and I have wrinkles all over my face, like what a beautiful thing to have spent 80 years having this human experience.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things you talk about is moving from personal liberation to collective liberation. What does collective liberation look like? Like? What can people do? I know, there’s probably a lot. Yeah, what would you say to that?

Chrissy:
Number one, I would say I talk about collective liberation, because, you know, very badly paraphrase Audrey Lorde, quote, or are also Fannie Lou Hamer, it’s like, none of us are free, unless all of us are free. And that is the true reality of liberation, our freedom is found in one another. And we bring regardless of whether we recognize that or not, it truly is. And so I think it talks about collective liberation, because that is what sets us all free, really. But I do think it’s important to start with our own individual liberation and the sense of like, understanding how to set your own body to be on your own body liberation journey, personally, and then more move towards the collective. And so when we’re thinking about moving towards the collective, I’m always talking about centering the most marginalized among us, right. So even myself, as a black woman, having a different experience, I can recognize that if I was a black trans woman, or black disabled woman, my experience would be even different. So it’s like, how am I when I’m thinking about what I’m going through, and like, you know, how systems are oppressing me, and then thinking it taking me a step further and saying, Well, how is oppressing people with even more marginalized and intersecting identities than myself? And so the work doesn’t stop with just my own freedom that work stops with making sure everyone is free. And so how do we do that? I know when we think of oftentimes, like dismantling systems, that seems like such a big thing, like how can I personally dismantle white supremacy, and actually, none of us individually by ourselves can do that. But we can move towards that, in first small and practical ways. Which means it’s like having conversations with those around us is like a first marker of something that we can all do. And like, so we’re thinking about buying liberation, it’s about how are we talking about our bodies, around people around us, like with our partners, with our friends, with our family members, with our children, right? And how are we working to help the next generation not have as many struggles as we are personally? And then, you know, we talked about earlier about this piece of like, how am I being complicit within the system? And so that talk that moves towards like, you know, what are one of the ways I can personally impact in the circles that I’m in? And the you know, especially for those of us who are more privileged, how can we leverage and I hate to say leverage privilege, because, you know, when we’re thinking about dismantling white supremacy supremacy, the goal is that their privilege doesn’t exist for any of us because we’re all equal. But while we’re working towards that, how do we leverage the first privilege we have to speak up to speak truth to power to when we’re in situations in which we can recognize inequities? How are we using our voice to, to have impact in those situations? And so, yes, I’ll let you know Do sometimes things like these really big things, but it’s really coming back to on a personal level, what do I have within my sphere of influence? My, my sphere of influence? How can I use and take knowledge? I have information I have the positionality I have in the world and impact change even in small ways, because those small ways add up.

Summer:
Yeah, totally. And you you talk about like, I think a lot of people think well, like inclusion, right? Like it’s like, but you talk about how inclusion doesn’t actually do the work of dismantling? Can you speak to that?

Chrissy:
I think that inclusion became like really popular, right? I think that’s one of the I don’t want to call it like a pitfall, the 2020. But I think that after George Floyd, everyone’s like, Oh, my gosh, should give me more inclusive. And it’s like, yes, no, but we really need to be more anti racist, right. But that’s really the thing. And I think inclusion sometimes can be a band aid to dismantling systems because we stop it inclusion, right? Like, oh, we have all these different people in the room, we’ve done the work of inclusion. And it’s like, no, that’s not the work of inclusion, or inclusion is not the work. That is not the work of dismantling systems. Inclusion just means that we have a lot of people in the space. And hopefully, we’re treated with dignity and respect. But oftentimes, people have used this word inclusion as like a metaphor for like, I’ve done the work now, and there’s nothing else to be done. And when you read the book, I go into a lot of examples of like inclusive organizations who are actually still very, that call themselves inclusive, right, that are actually in very much ways still harming people. And so I think that inclusion, and like using that term as a signifier of like, I’m one of the good ones, does, it’s harmful to actually dismantling because it stops the conversation there versus talking about like, oh, actually, like, how am I an action? How am I putting these things into practice in action in my life, life? And what does that look like? And so one example that’s not even in the book, because it’s happened after the book was published, is I had a close friend who’s a white woman, and I thought we were close friends for quite some time. But when we recently have not become friends anymore, and it’s because and this person was very much of like, I’m inclusive, I run inclusive events, I have an inclusive conference, I’ve done the work of anti racism. But we had a situation in which something happened. And race was the underlying tone of it. And I called her in meaning I tried to have a conversation with her one on one about how this situation actually caused harm to me. And like, this is someone I like traveled with, like I’ve stayed in their house. And so I’m like this thing happened. And this is how it was harmful to me. And instead of being able to, like have a conversation with me, she blocked me and we’ve never spoke since. And this is someone who said I was like, what are their best friends. And so I’m saying that inclusion can be the black, you know, blockage to actual liberation and actual dismantling is because when you feel like as a person, you have done the work to quote unquote, be inclusive. And then someone says, Actually, you’ve done this thing that’s harmful, if you can actually deal with the discomfort of having caused harm to someone and work towards, you know, repairing that, and your your go to response and be like, I don’t want to talk to you anymore. And unfortunately, it happens with people under more than I care to say. And so I think that’s why it’s really being it’s really like negating the process of actually dismantling systems because it gives people this ability to say no, I’m a good I’m a good white person. I haven’t caused harm, and I couldn’t cause harm because I’ve read the books, and I’ve done the courses and novels things.

Summer:
Yeah, it’s more performative. And yeah, yeah, I’m sorry, that happened to Well, I, I loved your book so much. And I hope everyone goes out and reads it. It’s like, it’s such a great read, like, like, I just loved all your stories loved the the motive, I hate to say like, you’re like a motivational speaker, but like, you have a really good way of like, lifting people and like you make people feel good through through your writing. And I really appreciate it like all of the different prompts at the end of every chapter. And so I’ll definitely be recommending it to everyone, but congratulations on it. I think it’s like it’s so well done.
Where can where can people find more of you?

Chrissy:
Absolutely. Well, first, I want to say I just want to say thank you for all the kind words you said about my book. And also I do think one of my superpowers is being able to take things that are really can be really uncomfortable and make it feel accessible to people. So I appreciate that. You said that but if you want to find more of my work, you can follow me on Tik Tok, Instagram and Twitter. It’s I am Chrissy King. My website is Chrissy king.com. I also have a newsletter that goes out weekly that you can subscribe to. And the book the body liberation project is available anywhere books are sold.

Summer:
Amazing. Thank you so much, Chrissy as always, it’s such a pleasure having you on here and it was great to see you again.

Chrissy:
Same Thank you for having me back. It was a pleasure rock on.

Summer:
Such a great conversation with Chrissy there. I hope you go out and buy the body liberation project. You can find all the links mentioned in this episode at summer innanen.com forward slash 265 Thank you so much for being here today. I will be back again soon rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search, eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time rock on.