We also talk about the relationship between anti-fatness and anti-Blackness and why perhaps GOOP isn’t the worst thing.

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Summer:
This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance. With personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group. This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting, and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 264. And I’m joined by Jessica Wilson, clinical dietitian and author of it’s always been ours. We’re talking about why dismantling diet culture isn’t enough how ideas like intuitive eating can cause harm and the conversations we really need to be having. instead. We also talk about the relationship between anti fatness and anti blackness and why maybe goop isn’t the worst thing in the world. You can find the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 264. I want to give a shout out to stinging needles who left this review. Thank you summer for being such an important component of my recovery. To know that I am not alone on this journey has been one of the greatest gifts of your podcast. Thank you for your encouraging and reassuring words much love to you summer. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. You can leave a review by going to Apple podcasts search for eat the rules, and click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. If you want some free stuff, grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies. And if you’re a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles, get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap, this conversation that I’m having with Jessica today is so important. And I really cannot recommend her book. It’s always been ours. Enough. I think especially for any white folks listening to this, this conversation is of particular importance. I think we spend a lot of time in this space, especially if you’re a professional listening to this talking about dismantling diet, culture and problems with wellness culture. And we’re really missing the overarching piece of this puzzle, which is white supremacy. And Jessica really helps connect those dots in her book as well as in this interview, and I’m super excited for everyone to be listening to it. I think regardless of whether you’re like a provider or just someone on your own journey, if you’re white, it can’t just stop with our own individual journey, we really have to talk about the ways that we can move towards collective liberation for all and I took away so much from this and so much from her book, so I hope you enjoy it too. Jessica Wilson, she her is a clinical dietitian, consultant and author whose experiences navigating the dietetic fields as a black queer dietitian, have been featured on primetime news, public radio shows and in print media. Jessica has worked as a trauma informed clinical dietitian since 2007, and believes that her clients lived experiences can be more important to their care than what is considered to be best practice. She speaks openly and candidly about the harm caused to our patients by designating individual identities as risk factors rather than targeting the structural inequities and violence that marginalized individuals must endure her first book, it’s always been ours is out now. Let’s get started with the show. Hi, Jessica, welcome to the show.

Jessica:
Thanks so much for having me.

Summer:
I’m excited to have you here. And I really as I was saying to you offline, I really enjoyed your book, I thought it was like such an important perspective and necessary perspective that I’ve been suggesting to all the professionals that that we work with, as well as as my clients. And so I’d love you to start just by just by sharing a little bit about like, how you got into this work like How Why did you become a dietitian and specifically why did you want to start speaking around these subjects?

Jessica:
Yes, let’s give you do you want the abridged or the long version?

Summer:
Maybe Somewhere in the middle, okay,

Jessica:
I started becoming a dietitian because I wanted to talk to people about food. And then I started working in college health. And that’s not what happened. In college, I did not want to work with people with disordered eating or eating disorders, but I was not I did not have a choice. And dietitians will tell you, we learned nothing about eating disorders and disordered eating generally, other than like, the, like, specific things that happened from, you know, typical anorexia and bulimia and that’s like one class, and then you move on. And so that was a drastic learning curve curve. And I really don’t think I was great at it the first two years, but then started getting clients who didn’t fit the stereotypes for anorexia and was like, Oh, this is important, like, social justice work that I really want to be a part of. That was like, 2010 2011 2012. And so then, so for the last 10 years, it’s been a goal to have my clients be seen, and in both, you know, the fields and in one on one appointments, and I felt like it was going well in appointments, but then, you know, that’s one person. And, you know, I’m working with them for a long time, and maybe like, 10 at a time. So how can I reach both clinicians, but also people who are not seeing me, and not seeing themselves in the field? And how can we, how can we do that? And then here we are, with a book.

Summer:
Yeah, and obviously, like your platform has grown quite a bit over the last few years. And, and you, you, you critique, like kind of what we see in the mainstream as it relates to the anti diet messaging, and body positivity and stuff like that, which is, which is obviously so necessary. One of the things I’d love you to speak to is just how I think the overall kind of overarching message within the kind of like, anti diet bubble, so to speak, is that we need to like, just dismantle diet culture. And you talk about in your book, how that really misses the mark. So what do you feel like is missing? Or like, what what would you like to see change?

Jessica:
The great question and one that I’ve only recently been thinking about, as mentioned in the book that I was in a conversation that was supposed to be about how the roots of diet culture are in racism and white supremacy, but you know, reframe that to say that racism and white supremacy are really like at the root of diet culture. But then I noticed and, you know, folks were very clear and understood that, and that was years ago, but people, you know, continue to use the framing of diet culture. And I was just curious about that, and why, you know, it seemed like that it wasn’t that it was more accessible to people, but just easier. You know, so it’s easy to have a conversation about, you know, how almond mom’s sorry, I don’t know if that’ll be familiar to your audience, but the Gen Z, okay, the Gen X, or Su, just, you know, thoughts and X, you need to be elements, or ice cubes. And, you know, Weight Watchers, which then became whatever diet people are on, easier to call those the like problems, and like, the reasons that we develop the relationships that we do with food and bodies. And I really thought that did both a disservice to folks who don’t follow, you know, within the stereotypes, but also to folks that do, and just the ways that we’re talking to people, and how the oftentimes invalidates their experience with like the safety and survival found in you know, shrinking and starving our bodies to make them smaller and more palatable. And thinking particularly of black women, folks of color, and fat folks, generally. And it just really misses the real roots of like, the core issues. And like, just makes it about like thinness. And you know, dieting, what, it’s so much more complex than that. So, yeah, I just would love to see you asked what I would do instead of a long version, but how can we talk about like, the safety and survival with our clients that are gained and not just chalk it up to them not feeling good about their bodies or something like that? How can we really address like the functions of the disordered eating the functions of things in a way that makes it you know, less of a problem like that they have caused by this, you know, restriction or whatnot, but like more of a societal and structural like, problem. Hmm,

Summer:
yeah. And so on that note, like you, you also critique, intuitive eating in your book. And so I think a lot of people listening to this are like pretty, you know, like, they believe in intuitive eating, whether it’s like not like, I don’t necessarily mean like, exactly following principles, but just as an overarching sort of philosophy. So, yeah, I really wanted you to speak to how you see Intuitive Eating actually causing harm.

Jessica:
i Let’s see, at that same time that I stopped becoming like a calories in calories out dietician, or you know, start You’re learning more about eating disorders, intuitive eating was like the book, you know, like, here you go, if you know what everybody else was saying about eating disorder recovery, it was like, Here, here’s intuitive eating. And at the time, it seemed amazing, right? Like, you come from calories in calories out as a dietitian to like, eat, you know, according to what your body is telling you. And that sounds amazing on the surface. And, you know, for me, as a clinician, I hear this, you know, all the time, it offered principles to my clients. So as a dietitian, you know, we’re trained to offer something, you know, if it’s not a handout, really giving some sort of, you know, guideline and for me and for others, you know, it was the offering to our clients, the cure things that are not calories for you. But what I found for my clients over time was how tightly they were holding on to these 10 principles, and asking me the questions like how full is too full? How hungry, you know, should it be, and I even went to a webinar, it was like, range three to six, like, eat here. And like, this is too full, like, oh, no, this is reinforcing the same, like weird rules about like, shouldn’t shouldn’t eating, and you know, all the time providers who say, Oh, I don’t follow those principles to the letter, but like, we’re still, like, reinforcing that, you know, food is like a biological need. It’s, you know, the principal change from, like, cope with your feelings with without using food to cope with your feelings about with kindness. But I’ve compared the two editions of intuitive eating, and it’s literally the same language, nothing has changed. It’s still like food isn’t biological need. And if you’re eating it, you’re disconnected either, if you’re eating it for pleasure, and you know, is the very similar, like origins of just like rigidity when it comes to food. And, you know, of course, people have a variety of reasons that they’re not able to eat only when they’re hungry only when they’re full. We learned, you know, we’re learning more about neuro divergence, and how people just don’t have, you know, the same hunger and fullness cues. You know, trauma really impacts how we feel about our bodies. And there just hasn’t been any expansion of what we’re doing for our clients, which is wild, because Intuitive Eating has been around for almost 30 years. Like how, why are we why we’re doing the same stuff?

Summer:
Hmm, yeah, well, I guess, because it’s just like the gold standard. Of like, this is the solution. Right? Totally. And so yeah, to your point, like, the message, this kind of, like, underlying message is like, food is a biological need. It almost like reminds me of like, the Food is fuel message of dieting. Right? Like, and so like, when you’re working with people, I’m just curious, like, What approach do you suggest instead like to, for people who, who’ve come from, you know, who have a disordered relationship with food?

Jessica:
Yeah, my friend who also like, goes in and out of recovery for an eating disorder, um, you know, tells me that my philosophy is, like, eat food and feel how it feels. Yeah, that’s terrifying for her. So like, what does that mean? And I’m like that. It’s a great question. Like, what does it mean for you? You know, do you do well, eating, you know, three meals a day? Do you eat? You know, if you eat more at a certain time? Like, how are your energy levels? Like, I don’t know, I’m looking at a biological organism who also like, enjoys food. So let’s figure out what that’s like. Do you have long periods of time between you know, that you can eat? So yeah, let’s just figure it out. Together, rather than me being the one who knows, which is another dichotomy, like situation we get into, like me, supposing you know, supposed to know the answers to like, someone’s body. And I’m like, that’s not how this works.

Summer:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Because I’ve seen that trip people up, like, where they come and they are, like, so hyper focused on, you know, like fullness or hunger or, and feeling like they need to, like they’re doing something wrong, you know, so to speak, if they’re just eating and, and how important it is to just like, Yeah, I mean, I always tell people to just eat like a grown ass adult, you know, which is not super helpful in terms of the specifics either, but the overarching philosophy of like, if you want to eat it, just eat it. So in so within that, too, like, if like food is really just a biological need, then the same sort of, like, it’s almost like the, you know, like the fat phobia is baked into that in a way, right? That’s how I’m sort of like thinking about it as as we’re talking about it right now.

Jessica:
And always, like, if we read between the lines of intuitive eating, it’s always about eating lists. So if you only eat till actually not even fullness, sorry, satisfaction, not fullness. You know, you’ll eat less or if you you know stop listening to the food police and like make peace with food, you’ll eat less of it. If you you know, gentle nutrition because you still want to eat the healthy foods still Exercise, you know, but maybe just in a less compulsive way so it’s it’s the same thing like if you do all these things and do Intuitive Eating you’ll inherently just eat less and that like is the same, same same and the part about like emotional eating is back to purity culture you know the same with like not having sex for procreation I’m sorry for like enjoyment only for procreation and we’re just like repeating the things but like with a different spin on Mmm

Summer:
hmm, yeah, no, that makes that makes a lot of sense. So yeah, so in the in the book you talk about a common anti diet messages of like, okay, just eat the damn cake and I can’t remember some of the other. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so what you say is I’m going to quote your book here, as you say, staying in a place where eating cake is liberation protects those who directly benefit from upholding whiteness, and then this from having to address the far greater and more complicated legacy of white supremacy and its contribution to anti fatness. So I would love for you to speak to that. And, and just elaborate on that point,

Jessica:
a part of it too, in my experience. So I will often tell people that I started of course, all in on intuitive eating, but also on Health at Every Size. And I was, you know, at the like actual wooden tables of the Health at Every Size, like Think Tank folks in the Bay Area. Before quickly realizing that it was very similar to second wave feminism. It was just about fatness when I tried to bring in intersectionality literally the words were like, this isn’t about that, Jessica. And it was like, super focused on like, making it okay to be a fat white woman, very affluent, again, Bay Area culture. And that was where it lands it and like getting to hear what liberation sounded like in those circles was totally, like, I’m gonna find food freedom in what I’m doing now. And it was about like, body liberation, but it was so you know, inherently focused, that one had, like, still included like an intersection of fitness when it came to food freedom. But otherwise, you know, by then White dietitians who were of course, you know, like bending over and showing their fat, which is just the fold, talking about how great it is for them to be able to eat pizza. It’s so easy. It’s just so super easy to be calling it diet culture and how they were, you know, cured from what was going on, when they realized it was okay to be a size eight instead of a size four. Like, that’s okay, if that’s liberation for you, but let’s not call it that. Let’s just say you feel better about yourself, which is nice for you. But the rest of us, you know, have to deal with structural and systemic concerns when it comes to our to our body. So limiting liberation to just eating cake or even intuitive eating can be really limiting and not help the people who really needs to help, you know. Yeah, I think about it.

Summer:
Yeah, like, do you see that? Because sometimes I see it as like a stepping stone. But so a lot of times people just get stuck there, right? Like, because admittedly, like I was that person, you know, nine years ago, who was like maybe even like six years ago, still kind of thinking that way. But that was a stepping stone, right? Like I like and so for some people, it’s a stepping stone, but for a lot of people, it’s like, that’s where the that’s where the buck stops, because that’s where the popularity grows, right? Like, my engagement went way down, like many years ago, when I stopped showing my body parts, you know, and it’s like, really? Oh, yeah.

Jessica:
Tell me more about that. I’m super curious. Oh, really? Yeah. Tell me more.

Summer:
We’re turning this around.

Jessica:
When I’m sure it’s relevant, right. So like, what people want to see and what I’m saying and how you know, it read

Summer:
Oh, yeah. Okay, so I think it was 2016 I made a decision to no longer show like my body on social media. And I wasn’t doing a lot of it. I wasn’t like some of the body positive pages. But I would show like, for example, like, a picture of myself in a bikini and just talk about how like, you know, like how, like, I don’t even remember the context of it, but just like Cellulite is normal, you know what I mean? Like, it’s embarrassing to talk about now, to be honest. I also like don’t mind admitting how much I’ve grown because I think that’s not super important. But there was a lot more engagement like they used to get like a shit ton of likes, and like shares and like growth, and I want to stop that. Like there was a there was a significant difference. And but that was actually the impetus of making me want to make that change. Because what I noticed was, you know, Instagram does, like, here’s your top 10 of the year, or at least they used to, I don’t know, if they still do, I don’t know, all of my top 10 Were the were the ones that showed my body and that I was like, that was part of the problem for me because I never wanted to be valued that way. And that’s exactly what was happening. But more so I realized that my that was not helping anybody that was like, completely not acknowledging my privilege and not like, like you said, like, not helping those who actually, you know, need to be supported better in our culture. And so, so yeah, so what are your thoughts on that, then?

Jessica:
I love that I would not have thought at all about engagement going down. But that makes total sense. So no, I just really appreciate that. And I’ll share that with others too. But how much you know a lot of what we do like drives, like because of engagement, I didn’t know that Rachel Hollis, author of like, Girl, wash your face and girl Stop apologizing, you know, started in whatever year because she, you know, posed in a bikini on a beach with like, the stretch marks on her stomach. And people were just so inspired by that. And I don’t know what size she is. But I would say objectively, that she is very thin and very conventionally beautiful by societal standards. And it’s wild. To me that that is what like inspires people to find or, you know, engage with material, when, like, cellulite on a very thin stomach is not like it’s a societal problem. But you know, it’s can be a personal problem. And so again, I think that’s a perfect example we were just talking about, about the distraction when we can make it about cellulite or stretch marks. And then we’re really not looking at all of the ways that bodies are policed outside of those things. And those things are hard, right, like looking at white supremacy, looking at capitalism, looking at poverty and food apartheid, like those are hard things. But you know, if I can feel better about myself, first stretch marks like that’s a simple like, when, and I You’re totally right about getting stuck there, you know, but I do agree that eat the cake can be a great starting place, again, but then I’m only inspired by people who eat cake in public. So I think body positivity is similar. All of my friends that I interviewed for the book, fat black folks started with body positivity before realizing that it was a very narrow, not even movement, but like proclamation and how it was leaving them as black folks, and really as fat folks also, because so many thin, white folks are leading body positivity right now that it’s fat black folks, they were just like, wondering who this was for? For sure. But yeah, the stepping stone?

Summer:
I definitely see. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So speaking about, like, the relationship between anti fatness and anti blackness, like one of the things you talk about in the book is how the pursuit of thinness for black woman is really connected to getting closer to whiteness, and the first story that you share about the client that came to you and, and and you, you know, you kind of explained that, like, they would likely need to eat more food because they were really under nourishing themselves. And they said, like, but I can’t be, I can’t be fat and black. Right, like, and so I would love for you too. Yeah, to just kind of, you know, maybe speak to that as it relates to what you’ve sort of seen in your experience and, and things like that.

Jessica:
Totally, I think a lot of it comes down to how black women black folks are hyper visible yet invisible, especially in like academic or work settings. Right. So we obviously stick out. But also, you know, so we’ll get asked like, are we the ones like delivering coffee or from whatever it is, we’re assumed to be like part of the service stuff. But we’re also like not called upon are asked for our opinions and not really respected in the same, you know, in the setting. So, you know, invisible but also hyper visible. And when folks are already too much there can be like safety and survival found and like shrinking oneself. And like inherently, as you’ve mentioned, like, that becomes closer to like what white supremacy like demands of black folks is to become like less of a threat. And so making you know yourself or oneself smaller can be one way of doing so and becoming more palatable, right by showing that your body is at least trying to conform and I also speak about Lexia black gymnasts in the book and how it was never about like thin for her. Like she had not even like thought about fitness but as a gymnast becoming, you know, less muscular, less, quote, powerful as she was, you know, assumed to be just because she was black and more elegance, you know, she was just judged better, you know, on her scores, and it was never about like anything other than that. And so her eating disorder totally served a function and without it, you know, she wouldn’t have gotten in her For 10, so, like these just different functions for people that are completely outside of what we typically discuss when it comes to eating disorders?

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, totally. And like within the the treatment field as well, like I imagine, I forget what the stat is like that. I think you wrote that, in terms of the research around eating disorders, only black women are with eating disorders present in point 00 1% of the research. Yeah, which, I mean, I shouldn’t be shocked by that. But at the same time, it’s such a low percentage, it’s like, it’s and so you realize how much that like white supremacy is missing from the conversation around in treatment, when someone’s trying to get support for an eating disorder, like, you must have noticed that so much when you are working, like in your work as a clinician,

Jessica:
it’s something that we talk about, as well as black dieticians and putting people into, you know, treatment is that like, you will, like our clients of color, you know, we have the conversation, like it will inherently be harmful, you just will express or experience, you know, Antifa and anti black violence in this scenario, and we’re literally worried for your life right now. So like, we want you to live, and so then we’re making this like, awful, you know, deal of like experiencing racial harm is better than dying. So, you know, it’s awful. Like in those spaces, generally, like groups, I think about like eating disorder, and even like, it was also like body image groups when people are talking about, you know, not wanting to be a size eight, when they’re size four. But like, that is like the extent of the conversations there when people are like, actually, like, no, it’s about something far greater than, you know, not wanting to be a size eight, or size, you know, whatever. It’s about how I am treated whether or not I get jobs as a black person. And if I’m smaller, you know, I’m more likely to be seen.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. And access to health care, and like, so many different things. Yeah.

Jessica:
Yes, like living and not being literally policed. Yeah,

Summer:
yeah. Do you see things getting better at all in that space, like in the eating disorder, recovery space, or in like the, like, anti diet space? Or do you feel like things are still just stuck?

Jessica:
In 2023, I see that people are able to critique, intuitive eating, and that one is progress. The leaps and bounds I’m looking for, I think I need to moderate my expectations. And just recognize that change is slower than my brain typically works. So you know, people are five years in the making or so I am hopeful, but we can’t undo like the corporate of, you know, eating disorder treatments so easily. I talked about a eating disorder webinar on black women that I went to, that was going to be like, the treatment for black women and eating disorders. And I was like, yes, absolutely. It was by two black women clinicians who were older, who basically said, The only eating disorder that black women have is binge eating disorder. And the reason they have it in college, is because black men in college are only dating white women. That’s why they get binge eating disorder. And those folks are the people who are president of eating disorder organization. Because in 20, you know, 21, people were looking for the black person to be, you know, in places of power. And so they’re picking the most like palatable ones. So what I also what looks like progress, like isn’t, but in 10 years or so, when people are retired, like I am more hopeful for like who can be influencing conversations?

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that’s somewhat positive. I don’t know.

Jessica:
I’m mean, I left intuitive eating 10. No, eight years ago. So if people like are taking that trajectory, you know, maybe an eight will be good again.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. We have time to talk about the goop summit if you are willing.

Jessica:
Sure. I love wellness. Disneyland is great.

Summer:
Wellness Disneyland. That’s amazing. So you actually subjected yourself to a goop Summit. But I think what I found more shocking was that well, actually, you know, in hindsight, it’s not that shocking, but I think if I just sort of read it quickly, I would have found it more surprising, but you said that the Harvard public health conference was actually more harmful but let’s take a step back. What was your experience at wellness Disneyland?

Jessica:
They err. So when writing this book, one may or may not be surprised that I have not like done a full like wellness, like immersion myself like I had never gone on a quote cleanse or any of that weird stuff. And you know, all of my experience was coming from my clients or like Glennis articles or whatever. So it was like I need to do is I need to get into it. And so she had her like goop guide to like places of Los Angeles. So I grabbed a friend, because I’m not going to do this on my own. So a friend who was actually pregnant at the time, so which was also very wild. But we went down to LA we went to like, all these, like places, oh, clean beauty places clean food places, Moon Dust, or Gosh, Moon juice. Sorry, that’s the place that had dusts. And so we tried all of the things with dust, and mushrooms and magical powers. And he was what like the people that we saw, were obviously only people who had money. And you know, over on the West Coast, we know that Los Angeles has a huge, you know, homeless population we never saw, folks while we were on this guide, the wellness summit was at a Porsche dealership. First driving experience. So even better, so had like a track that people could drive on as part of their wellness experience to you know, experience, the power and the, you know, the vibes of going anywhere. It was well, but it was full of what was supposed to be like inspirational conversation throughout the way. And then a bunch of weird goop food that I love, which I couldn’t identify, but included, like sparkling collagen mocktails which was great. And I had a great time. Like, I don’t know what I was expecting, probably that it was going to be like a full disaster. But it was just I laughed all day long. It was funny. And just like a silly experience, like I had a great time. And it was easy to leave behind. We got like $2,000 worth of stuff, which is wild, including dusts and things but like it was just easy for me to like have like jumped in this. And like leave it behind without really any attachment, which is you said already like was different from the Harvard TH chance healthy kitchens healthy lives Summit, which was different.

Summer:
Yeah, like, I think you talked about how like with goop like, it’s more about like wellness as a hobby versus, like health ism is that as I write, like, where’s Harvard public health? Like, what was your experience there?

Jessica:
So it did that one not as a like real immersion, but because I was actually asked to come and talk about health disparities, because people would, you know, see my work and other places, they needed a black person to talk about disparities. I think my name just was like the first one they found on the internet. And it was a three day conference that is in Napa, California, which is incredibly, like rich, white and pretentious. It’s like the snobby or wine country portion of wine country. So like there’s no plane out there, you have to take like a bunch of transportation to get out there and to cost the gazillion dollars to stay and to attend. And it was all about like, basically healthy cooking classes like fully everything Mediterranean diet, you know, super white, like whole grains basically came on kale and avocados, olive oil, also. And the whole time I was watching people who make policy basically, who define nutrition. I was with the you know, father of nutrition. Walter Willett was there and it was just basically like all of his research regurgitated by multiple people. And I really like in those moments, it’s ridiculous. Like if you were to read like some really fat phobic or racist study online that you’re able to just note is super fat phobic, but like watching it all unfold, I was like, This is who is like driving the conversations about health and nutrition in this country, like the people here who cannot talk about, you know, poverty who can’t talk about anti fatness who can’t talk about medical racism, because it’s really just about quinoa and kale and personal choices. individual choices was big thing. Like we just need to teach people how to cook healthy foods, and therefore poverty exists because they’ll know how to eat was just like a there was two of me there was one who was just trying to be present. And then the other me, who was realizing that this is why the food narratives are so harmful and wrong in our society. And these is this is why our policies are just terrible. As opposed to goop, which was just hilarious. Harvard public health, you know, healthy kitchens, healthy lives was like the It’s weird, like I understand and like detrimental and that was the health isn’t peace, like health is morality is purity, like good people go here. And so the conversation that I had at the end of the goop chapter is like, even though, like wellness is super white and rich, like I would rather work there, then you know, work for people who were in, like building incredibly harmful policies in health and nutrition. So it was not prepared.

Summer:
Yeah, and so almost like tight, like coming full circle with this, it’s like the, I think within like, the anti diet space, like there’s so much critique on like, the wellness side, and, and, like, from what you’re saying, it’s like, it’s actually kind of harmless, it’s like, if we really want change, like it has to be looking at, you know, these individuals that really drive it from a systemic level.

Jessica:
And think that’s a great point, the, you know, critiquing of wellness is another like diet Kultury thing, like we’re focusing on like this one little bit of things, you know, that may have led me down, you know, a path of like, disordered eating, when you know, our entire environment is what healthy kitchens healthy lives, was addressing the medical industrial complex medical racism is not what we’re, you know, deciding to put our focus on. And instead, we’re focusing on individual choices, like I can undo wellness, or what wellness has taught me versus, you know, let’s look at the entire population and how they’re impacted by these food and body messages. So you’re totally right, about that additional example of how we’re just distracting ourselves perhaps from like, the greater problems.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. Cuz I was just, you know, like, obviously, we’re recording this, like, a couple of weeks after one sort of just released, like, you know, her video of what she doesn’t eat. And like, it’s like, that gets so much, you know, like air and critique and everything else. And it’s like, and yeah, it takes away from, you know, the space where it’s like, if people got that angry about, you know, yeah, these other things are good boy.

Jessica:
Totally. If you have entire think pieces, about, you know, food apartheid or redlining. That that is enraging. Gwyneth is silly and ridiculous.

Summer
What’s red? Did you say redlining? What is that? Sorry, I

Jessica:
know, it’s no problem. So in a lot of historically, black and brown neighborhoods, people would only sell real estate, basically, housing to people in certain areas of a certain city is pretty much the summary there. So like heavily concentrating, black and brown people, and then not putting grocery stores in those spaces, putting very expensive corner stores, they’re putting a lot of, you know, fast food restaurants there, and it’s like systemically under like resourcing a situate scenario. And then putting white folks in more affluent areas. So really, like the redlining and the food apartheid, are the ones that I get down to, as well as generational wealth, but those things like if people get angry about that, and like fundraised for, you know, legislation to handle that versus, like, don’t spend $75 on a candle that smells like when is Regina $75 Literally, and yeah, so can we that’s a great point. Can we like address these things? Because like me is one person as a black woman talking to Walter it’s not going to change policy, but if a bunch of affluent you know, white folks in the spaces were to speak up and talk to you know, people who are well resourced and connected like that might change something

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I really appreciate everything that you’ve said here today. It’s so important and and all of this is like really much covered much more in depth in your book so I do hope that people go out and and buy it. Where can people find more of you Jessica?

Jessica:
The book it’s always been ours rewriting the story of black women’s bodies is audio II and on the internet’s to buy. Instagram is Jessica wilson.ms rd, and because I’m starting to work with more 20 year olds, you can find me on Tik Tok at by Jessica Wilson. Hopefully that’ll be more like look talk in such in both of those places, and then I do consultation as well. You can just like email me.

Summer:
Perfect. Thank you so much, Jessica. It’s been such a pleasure. I really enjoyed having you here.

Jessica:
Most have been great. You had a lot of great things to say.

Summer:
Thank you. I really enjoyed chatting with Jessica here and I hope that you check out her book. It’s always been ours. You can find it anywhere where books are sold. I will also link to it in the show notes for this episode, summer innanen.com forward slash to six before and if you can’t remember how to spell my name, you can always just go to the body image coach.com to find anything that I mentioned here. Thank you so much for listening today. I can’t wait to talk to you again soon. Rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search, eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.