CW: There are mentions of specific orthorexic behaviours in this episode. Please do what is best for you. You can skip to the 10 minute mark to avoid this part.

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Summer:
This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance. With personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group. This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 272 and I’m joined by Esther Kane eating disorder psychotherapist. We’re talking about her experience with orthorexia what helped her to heal, and some of the signs and symptoms of orthorexia. You can find the links and resources mentioned at Summer in n n.com. Forward slash 272. I want to give a shout out to LIS see 303 Who left this review summer is pure brilliance down to earth and a talent at discussing the hard things whilst balancing with humor as needed. Summer shares incredible insights into the freedom from diet culture, discuss his body image and the roles that society plays and people’s experiences of society in this arena. It is enlightening. Thank you so much I so appreciate that review from you all the way from Australia means the world to me. You can leave a review for other show by going to Apple podcast search for eat the rules. Then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. Don’t forget to grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com. Forward slash freebies with 10 steps you can take right now to feel better in your body. And if you’re a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles, get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap. Of course, you can always just go to the body image coach.com. And you’ll find all the links that I mentioned here. I want to give a content warning for this episode. Esther is telling her story, she does give some specific details about her experience with orthorexia and some of the behaviors that she engaged with. So if you need to skip this one, or at least skip the first 10 minutes, then do whatever you need to do that’s going to be best for you at whatever stage you’re at in in your own journey. This is a really important topic because I think orthorexia is one of those conditions that’s often overlooked, often under diagnosed, it’s not officially recognized in the DSM five. So a lot of times it’s normalized, right, like it’s celebrated, that you eat really, quote unquote clean or you’re obsessed with health. And as you’ll hear in this interview, when Esther talks about the signs and symptoms of orthorexia, I pretty much checked off all those boxes, not now. But you know, 15 years ago when I was like deep, deep deep into eating very paleo. So I think it’s one of those things that kind of flies under the radar and is really normalized in our culture. And so it’s super interesting to hear her talk about some of the signs and symptoms and her own story and what helped with her recovery. So I think you’re going to enjoy this episode. Esther Cain has been an eating disorder psychotherapist for over 25 years. She lives in Victoria BC, but works all over Canada. She is the author of it’s not about the food, a woman’s guide to making peace with food in our bodies. She is also the host of compassionate conversations, which is a podcast as well as a YouTube show where she has recently done a series on food and body image. Let’s get started with the show. Hello, Esther, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Esther:
Thank you so much for having me.

Summer:
I’d love you to start by just telling everyone a little bit about your story what your relationship with food was like and and how that led you to this work?

Esther:
Yes. So it’s my story, the first chapter of my book which is called it’s not about the food. For free ebook version you can email me directly, Esther Esther game.com. But the short version is that my parents were divorced when I was four years old. It was devastating. I was an only child, so I didn’t have any siblings to lean on. I had to soothe myself with something and my first memory of that is eating a huge chocolate Easter egg. I was three years old sitting on the stairs as my parents were screaming and yelling. So I learned to control what I ate that gave me a sense of order and safety in an unpredictable and often unsafe environment. I split my time between my parents, I found that very stressful and confusing because they were so different. And especially around food. So my mother was a foodie ish gourmet cook. She was the food editor of the Toronto Star for 20 years. Yeah, so she was very big foodie, and in the media talking about food, and her whole life was for food. And after my parents divorced, my father became a staunch vegetarian, a vegan and macrobiotic. I always fed this food when they stayed with him. And this food war began between my parents, I think it was a metaphor for their anger and frustration with each other but the duking it out with food, and I was caught in the middle, whenever I ate what they fed me at their respective homes, I felt like I was betraying your the other one. And they said things disparagingly about the other parent and the food they were feeding me. So I felt guilty when they ate what either of them offered me and I was angry that they could control me this way. So I learned that food is a great way to control my parents, or at least be able to have a voice in those relationships. On top of that, I spent my summers divided between two sets of grandparents. I was the only grandchild for each set of grandparents. I was spoiled rotten. The my dad’s parents were in England, they let me eat as much candy and junk food as I wanted. And I gained weight, which you know, wasn’t such a big deal, but it was made a big deal my family when it got to my mother’s parents in Canada, my well meaning grandmother put me on my first diet. So I was eight years old at the time, and that’s when my eating disorder began in earnest. I started to hide food and eat in secret. And then during my teens, I decided to become a vegetarian, which led to a serious eating disorder, which included orthorexia.

Summer:
Yeah, wow. So yeah, so just for those listening like what is orthorexia? Like, how is it how is it defined?

Esther:
Yes, so Steven Bradman MD. He coined the term orthorexia nervosa in 1997. He actually wrote a journal in the Yoga Journal, he wrote an article just called orthorexia nervosa, and then he wrote the book called orthorexia healthy junkies overcoming the obsession with healthful eating. It’s wonderful. So he describes it as a disease in which people fixate on eating healthy food. It’s not categorized in the DSM five as a natural eating disorder per se, but many mental health professionals considered a quote subclinical form of an eating disorder. So he made up his term orthorexia, to differentiate it from anorexia in terms of why he says it’s different from anorexia and bulimia with one difference. Whereas the bulimic and anorexic focus on the quantity of food the Orthorexic fixates on its quality. And I believe very strongly that orthorexia is on the rise like never before. We’re living in a crazy time of extremes and depolarization is brings a lot of zealous health food crazes, and I have some concerns about what’s what I’m seeing for sure in the media right now.

Summer:
Yeah, which we’ll we’ll certainly speak to because that’s like, really what I’m noticing too, and I think it’s become so normalized. But I just kind of circling back to your story, like, what helped you realize that you had because obviously, like that was, was that pre there was even there being like a definition of orthorexia, or was that kind of around the time when it was becoming more like known, like, like what helped you realize that you had orthorexia? I guess that’s the question. Yeah. So

Esther:
I realized I had it in the early 1990s. And Steven Brightman wrote his book in 1987. So it hadn’t been sort of created yet, but I definitely had it. I was very much a part of spiritual yoga community. I was into Kundalini yoga. I was following a vegan lifestyle and doing lots of yoga and meditation, and was yeah, basically told that that meat was bad and wrong. Any animal products were bad and you weren’t a spiritual person if you eat those things, and I got stricter and stricter. I was also in the late 80s. As a teenagers into Fit for Life. You’re maybe too young to remember that book Fit for Life was by was this couple back in, in the 80s. And their name is you But it was it was it was all about food combining. And it was basically, you know, a vegan manifesto as well. And there was no emphasis on protein. It was basically they said, you can eat all the fruit and vegetables you want, and that you had to tie everything. So you only ate fruit in the morning up until noon, and then you were allowed to eat vegetables. And then you had to separate protein from carbohydrates from grades. So you have these two separate meals anyways, that took me over the edge, and like couldn’t hold down a job in my teens or my 20s because I was following this regimen. And if you just eat fruit from the time you wake up until noon, you’re constantly hungry, and you’re fatigued. And I’ve fainted a lot of those fainting, and then it was working out as well. So I got really sick and lost a lot of weight. And then really, it was very hard to keep friends because I got so righteous. And this ties into what’s happening today, which really scares me is I became one of these zealous vegans. And it was like a religion for me. I became, you know, very judgmental, and I righteous and I kind of was telling everybody how they should be. And it wasn’t just about food. It was kind of like this mission of changing the world. And I thought that people could improve their lives drastically by becoming vegan, and I became very socially isolated. That’s when I realized I had orthorexia. I basically couldn’t eat with people. My family and friends were very concerned about me. I was so sick, I was severely anemic, and so much so that I had absolutely no energy. And I was drinking so much juice, especially characters I gave myself vitamin A toxicity if you couldn’t read it is such a thing. Yeah, I was. I was dark shade of orange, I looked very weird. And my doctor was incredibly concerned about me and begged me to eat meat and I wouldn’t and he begged me to stop drinking all this juice. And he was also a Buddhist, and he was into hell food and everything. But he said I’d taken it too far. I carried food with me wherever I went into restaurants. So I would bring, you know, half the meal with me and eat it every coil thinking about now, but that’s what I did. Yeah, it was it was and then I found Steven Bradman’s book, which has this beautiful quote, I want to share with your listeners. He says that things shifted for him when a good friend of his who they were almost on they were vegan, and they think they were moving to a fruit carrying way of life, which is just eating fruit. He said his friend, his friend had a dream one night, and he said he had a revelation. So he shared this with Stephen. He said rather than eat my sprouts alone, it would be better for me to share pizza with some friends.

Summer:
Yes.

Esther:
That was that turned me around that quote right there. It was just I thought I’m sitting with my sprouts alone. Yeah, yeah, this is and I don’t like sprouts are horrible.

Summer:
Yeah. So what I’m what helped you What helped you heal your relationship with food? Like, obviously, you probably did a lot of work around it. But was there anything that sort of really, you found most supportive in that path?

Esther:
Yes. So reading Stephen Bradman’s book when that energy came out, but that wasn’t for about five years after I started to recover. So I went into eating disorder recovery. I wasn’t just Orthorexic. I was bulimic and anorexic. I would do these extended fasts and whatnot. So I realized that my relationships that in my life that they were more important to me than the food I was consuming. So I made a decision to focus on those instead. And I made my mental health a priority, not just what I thought was physically healthy, and I realized I was mentally unwell. And I got so ill from being vegan that I talked to my doctor was very concerned. So I finally took his advice. And he started eating animal foods, and immediately started to regain my health. I hadn’t had a period and a on and off like at least a year and a half, two years at a time. And I got my period right away when they started eating animal foods. And I started to be able to function. I wasn’t anemic, like it was pretty drastic and fast. But I started going to counseling. I was also going into the Social Work program. So I have two degrees in social work and undergraduate degree undergraduate degree in social work, and I wanted to work I decided to devote my career to working to help people heal from eating disorders. I was so passionate. Once I saw the light. I wanted to help so I immediately started doing practicums working, worked in hospital with kids and teens with eating disorders. I was doing that kind of work and therapy. So I really worked through the reasons why I had been led to an eating disorder in the first place. And I learned to gain control. It was so much about control for me that I learned to gain control and important areas of my life where I felt I had number four by using my words and my actions instead of starving my After death, or you know, playing it out with food, and I really developed my spirituality, that whole idea of a spiritual connection, a power greater than myself helped tremendously. And yeah, eventually became an eating disorder therapist been doing that for 26 years.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Yeah. And I, um, you know, I relate to a lot of your story, and that it was similar for me, but it was like the Paleo diet. And yeah, and so it’s just like any of these sorts of things, even though there was meat, and that can be taken to extremes. So you mentioned earlier, just like how you’re seeing sort of, like you’re noticing like that there’s probably an uprise in orthorexia, and things like that. And I’m noticing that too, because just the way that diet culture has really shaped shifted into more like wellness culture, and, and, you know, people espousing it in the name of health, but for people listening, like, what are some signs to watch out for that they’ve maybe taken something too far? Because like, obviously, there’s nothing wrong with being a vegetarian, or I don’t want to say there is if you do it well.

Summer:
Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. Right. So like, what are some, you know, what are some things for people to kind of like, watch out? What are the red flags?

Esther:
Yeah. Okay. So some of that I can think of off the top of my head, you get obsessed with the latest food, fad influencers, these influencers on social media, and you buy into everything they say, and follow their advice. Without question. I see that all the time. So I do a lot of, you know, critical analysis of people’s social media, when they come to me as a client, you know, who is this person? What are they? What are their issues that have led them to do it? If you start to believe that clean eating is a righteous path, and you get really zealous and it’s gonna save you from all the evils of the world, and you could even you know, avoid death? Yeah, that might be a sign. There’s people actually saying things like that, you turn down social engagement, because you don’t want to eat the food being served. That’s kind of a big red flag. That’s with every eating disorder as well, but very much so in orthorexia. You start to obsess about the food you’re eating and put it into the categories of good foods and bad foods, which, again, can be any eating disorder. But there’s, I think, that much more of event of that with orthorexia. You become extremely judgmental of others who aren’t following your way of eating, and you verbalize this directly to them, you begin to believe that you are a better person than they are because of the way you eat. I’ve seen that I’ve seen that a lot lately. And you try to quote save other people who you believe are killing themselves by eating the wrong foods.

Summer:
You’re basically describing how I was

Unknown Speaker 17:50
never diagnosed with this. I can laugh about it now. But yeah, wow. I just think that’s it’s like such a normal thing. Yeah, sorry. Keep going. I didn’t mean to interject. That was it. Yeah. And like, those things are so normalized. Like I remember, I did one fitness training course, like so long ago now. And like, there was a little module on nutrition. And I remember the girl like talking about how, just bring your own food, like I went on a date with a guy and I brought my own food and Tupperware and like, that’s what we need to be doing. And

Esther:
yeah, help, you know, yeah, yeah.

Summer:
Yeah, but it’s like, it’s like, endorsed, it’s promoted. And it’s like experts with with, you know, some training know a lot, but who you trust

Esther:
But there’s full on doctors and experts with PhDs saying this stuff, too.

Summer:
Yeah, yes, exactly. Exactly. So what’s your response to someone who says something like, Well, what’s so bad about eating healthy food? Like, you know what, so what’s so bad about it? If you’re gonna do that?

Esther:
Well, there’s nothing wrong with eating healthy food, just just to me a no brainer. But it’s when you take it to extremes. It’s about balance, right? So you need balance in your life, you just don’t want to make food, the main focus, and you’re really trying to live in the gray in life in general. And I think I really have this theory that lately it’s become much worse with this extreme polarization We’re experienced, you know, that we saw Jared COVID. So much. So you know, that people are just getting so extreme about things. So trying to back off from that and find the great and now going into extremes, trying to watch for hyper vigilance, hyper focusing on one thing, you know, such as food, you know, I think that when we feel out of control, so COVID is a great example. We just felt like we had no control and we’re all freaked out and scared. We get small we tighten in to ourselves. And when we’re in that state, we were hijacked by our limbic system. So our big brain is offline. You know, we can’t think reasonably we can’t think things through and digesting. So trying to get out of the fight or flight or freeze mode, you know, this hyper reactivity, I really think is a big goal we should all be looking towards.

Summer:
Yeah. And so like, just on the tail of that, like, how do you What’s your suggestion for trying to get out of that hyper reactivity mode? Like what? Yeah, well, you know, what comes to mind for me is like mindfulness or things like that, like what sort of, you know, what do you what do you sort of suggest around that?

Esther:
Absolutely. So, spirituality, Buddhism, I’m a huge, wannabe Buddhist, I call myself a Jubu, or Buju and, you know, recognizing what I love about Buddhism is this idea that all things are impermanent, you know, all states are impermanent, including us. You know, we were born into this body, we die. And I try not to get too attached to this body in general, especially how it looks, and also the two wings of mindfulness that I think are so beautiful. One is boost awareness without judgment, blending that with self compassion. So Kristin Neff, Tara Brach, there’s some great thought leaders out there in this vein, who are you know, teaching us how to do that Kristin Neff has a self compassion break, which is really lovely. Tara brach has the Reign meditation of recognize, allow, investigate, nurture. These are practices that take one to three minutes that you can do when you start to spin out, and they help you come back into the body. I think really being in the body is a goal. Because when we get to I think orthorexia. You know, that’s a great example of just being in your head, you want to come back into the felt sense of the body, and experience life through that, like what gives me pleasure, what gives me joy, or gives me relaxation, those types of?

Summer:
Yeah, because obviously, it’s not sitting alone with your sprouts coming. That quote, yeah, and so I know you work with a lot of people recovering from eating disorders. Like I’m wondering, I think a lot of people sort of believe that eating disorders mostly affect younger demographics, which there has been like a massive increase in over the last couple of years in particular, but are you noticing this more with also like your older or like midlife sort of clients like that? There’s almost like this unrecognized demographic. I mean, there’s a lot of unrecognized and underrepresented demographics when it comes to eating disorder recovery, but would age sort of be one of those other underrepresented demographic? Yeah, what are you noticing around that?

Esther:
Well, we live in an ageist culture, especially in an anonymous misogynistic ages, culture, women get forgotten as soon as their hair turns gray or students they stop having a period. So I would say in my practice, that I work 5050 with younger women and older women, so you know about equal. And I’ve written a number of articles that people can check out there on my website, under the blog page called Women in midlife, and one specifically people might want to check out is eating disorders in midlife. One of the leading experts on this topic is Dr. Margo main. She wrote pursuing perfection, eating disorders, body myths, and women at midlife and beyond an excellent resource. And yeah, it’s a huge issue. There’s so many women in midlife who have eating disorders, and they, you know, wherever you go, there you are, if you haven’t worked through your eating disorder, when you’re younger, it’s going to follow you into your midlife and you know, older years.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah,

Summer:
I work with a lot of people who are, who are midlife. And yeah, like some of them have sort of been maintaining, like these like habits, disordered behaviors for like, 40 years or something for and it’s more

Esther:
entrenched and harder to loosen the grip when it’s that.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, at the same time, I

Unknown Speaker 23:51
also feel like sometimes they’re extremely motivated, because they’re like, kind of get to this point where they’re like, I don’t want to spend the last, you know, few decades of my life living this way. So it’s, you know, it’s amazing to sort of, you know, see and help people break free of that. And they don’t have to deal with some of the things that younger people have to deal with, like the Tick Tock scissors and feeling like you have to look a certain way. But there’s still a lot of pressure. But yeah, it’s it’s just really, it’s interesting to notice that because I don’t think there’s a lot of conversations around that. And I think when somebody hears the word eating disorder, they immediately picture sort of like, a young, privileged, white woman. That’s kind of like the image that comes to mind.

Esther:
That’s not my typical claim.

Summer:
Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. And so you mentioned like, you know, aging becomes another factor when people get older. What are some of the, you know, like the body image struggles that that you notice, or maybe even that you’ve sort of had to reckon with as you’ve as you’ve like, come into midlife

Esther:
Yes, I am. 51 years old and three quarters, I guess. Yes. So During the diamond perimenopause, very close, I think to menopause now, you have no control over that, let me tell you, Okay, so when women start when women start gaining weight through the menopausal transition, so this is normal natural, it’s very healthy, we usually gain weight around the abdominal area and around our breasts, which is because our estrogen levels are dropping, and it’s actually a protection against ovarian cancer and breast cancer. So there’s so much wisdom in the body and how we are made. So we don’t want that to not happen, actually, it’s very good is very protective. But I noticed women get very upset about that. And hair turning gray is another one, it changes consistency, which bothers some women, the skin changes quite dramatically, and it gets drier wrinkles appear. A lot of women say that they don’t have you know, the collection, they used to have a you know, the color in their face. They often report feeling invisible as sexual sexually desirable to others. That’s a big one. Yeah, I see reach midlife, they tell me a lot of times, I’m invisible, I’m invisible. And this makes them feel unattractive and less worthy. And I’m going to be interviewing Shirley, we’re I don’t know, if you know her. She’s the head of menopause chicks. So I’m going to be talking her specifically about women’s body image at this time of their lives. I’m also going to be interviewing us Susan Wilson, who wrote the book Making Sense of menopause. And so excited. She’s sort of a spiritual midwife of menopause. And very cool. She talks, she’s worked with indigenous people all over the world, who have a completely different view on menopause, which is very different than very empowering compared to ours. So in terms of me, and how I’m working through this time, it’s it’s a challenge, I must say, but I’ve been guided by my elders, I would say is my first strength. So grateful that I had two grandmothers who never had plastic surgery, who never said anything about their weight, their size, the changes in their bodies, they never dyed their hair, they just embrace aging, as a natural normal phenomenon. So they move through it with dignity and grace. And they develop their minds, learn languages, travel, did all these cool things. So I’ve had these wonderful examples, and lots of fat aunts and uncles, and, you know, people that have have lived wonderful elder years. And I have been lucky to be surrounded by women who don’t buy into the current beauty ideal. And focus instead on being good people. And really, everybody throughout myself with is about making a difference in the world to make things better, you being one of those. Yeah, and I make sure to surround myself with female friends. So when I pick friends, I make sure that they’re going about aging, power and weight. And I’ve interviewed three of them on my own podcast, which has been a hoot. And they’ve shared so much wisdom about aging. And then I come back to again, my spirituality, especially the influence of Buddhism. And, you know, just really looking at the body as this sort of spacesuit that you get, you know, ROM das called a space suit skin spacesuit or something, you know, you get it for a certain amount of time, and then don’t have it. So try not to get too attached to the body and how it looks. And you know, it just it has a natural development, like really looking at how nature works and being connected with nature that everything is garden, everything gets old, everything withers and dies. And I try to keep my focus on enjoying this body while I have it, you know, like what does my body do for me, and celebrating it at every phase and stage of its being, I’m actually loving being in my 50s. I call it the fierce 50s. I’ve using my voice I mean, having a podcast and a YouTube channel that like I don’t care what people think about me, I become invisible, but it’s fantastic. I’m using that to catapult me into the greatest things I’ve ever wanted to do. Because I don’t worry about the male gaze especially are a sexual gaze like it’s just not on my radar right now. And that’s one of the things Susan Wilson talks about that during this time. Sexuality is not at the top of our list. It’s about it’s not about sort of one person and being with one person. It’s about the world and how can I make a difference in the world? What will my contribution view? It’s really cool.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah, it’s a great reframe on the sort of, like, feelings of being invisible, right. Like, it’s like, that could actually be a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, a couple of things that popped out to me is just that you mentioned for yourself as well, as you mentioned, like your elders, I think it’s just really, you know, seeking out what really fulfills you in life and having and having purpose outside of, you know, just kind of fixating on how you look and, and I know for a lot of people that’s still really a hard thing to just completely, you know, attach yourself to and abandon sort of the attachment to how you look but

Esther:
I do not have you know, successful it’s a work in progress and it’s, it’s a, it’s a minute by minute practice is a practice over A day ever.

Summer:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, you’re we’re living in a culture where there’s, you know, you’re you have the pressure. So it’s not like you’re, you can completely escape from it. But I do think that that those are fundamental pieces of the puzzle in terms of, you know, whatever your age is, to be honest, is having that fulfillment, having, you know, social connections that empower you that lifts you up and having a sense of purpose that’s beyond just what you eat and how your body looks. Yeah, so that’s great.

Esther:
Oh, I just wanted to I just have one more thing I want to add. I’m very, very careful about who I follow on social media and what I expose myself to in that realm as well. Like, I don’t follow you yet promoting this stuff. It’s gonna make me feel bad about myself. Yeah,

Summer:
yeah. 100% No, that’s, that’s critical, I think. So where can people find more of you?

Esther:
Yeah. So they can go to my website and hopefully have this stuff in the show notes. So it’s triple W dot e s th er ke n e.com. And as I said, I’ll give you a free copy of my ebook. It’s not about food. If you email me, it’s Esther at Esther Cain calm, and and I have some links to orthorexia articles, and I have body image YouTube series and podcasts that people could find called compassionate conversations. And yeah, that’s about it.

Summer:
Yeah. I’ll link to all of those in the show notes. Well, thank you so much for being here, Esther. It’s been really wonderful. Thank you. Rock on.

All right, you can find all the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com. Forward slash 272. I hope you enjoyed listening today. Thank you so much for being here. I’ll talk to you next time rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.