We also talk about how you can unpack your internalized ageism.

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Summer:
This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance. With personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group.

This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 270. And I’m joined by Deb Benfield, registered dietician, nutritionist and pro aging advocate. We’re talking about why concerns about aging are impacting younger generations. How aging creates vulnerability to Diet and Wellness culture. How you can unpack your internalized ageism. And really start to embrace the aging process. You can find all the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 270. I want to give a shout out to star fairy 78 Who left this review. I first discovered summer about eight years ago Wow. And instantly fell in love. I love her raw, honest approach and I have learned so much from her. I stopped listening to podcasts for a little while due to the busyness of life. But with the lock downs a couple years ago and all the extra time I now have due to losing my job summers podcast was the first I added back to my list. I have missed her voice so much. I’ve slowly been working my way through the backlog of episodes I missed out on. And I’m so grateful for everything I’m learning from both summer and her incredible guests. Thank you so much for all the work that you do. You are so appreciated all the way from AWS. Laura, thank you so much. I really appreciate you leaving that review. So lovely. So thoughtful. And thanks for being such a longtime listener, sometimes I can’t believe that we’re coming up on nine years of this podcast, actually, perhaps when this episode airs, or a week or two later, it’s June 2023. It’ll be it’ll have been nine years, which I don’t even know what to say about that.

Sometimes I’m just like, What am I doing. And then other times I’m like, I really love this. It’s a lot of work. Anyways, if you want to keep the show on there. You can do that by subscribing to this show via iTunes or whatever platform you use. And if you haven’t already done so definitely leave a review. You can do that by going to Apple podcasts search for eat the rules, then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review or give it a rating. I don’t have any plans of taking this podcast off the air yet, just in case you’re wondering why I’m talking like that. You can also get the free 10 Day body confidence makeover summer innanen.com forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. And if you are a provider or another type of professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles. So if you’re a coach Dietitian and Nutritionist a personal trainer, and educator, a health care practitioner, then grab the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap that’s gonna give you some guidance on how you can work with clients around body image. I am really excited about this show. I’ve been following Deb’s account for a while her Instagram account is aging, body liberation. And I just feel like we need more voices in this space speaking to the intersection of aging and the way we feel about our bodies, I find the majority of clients I work with tend to be over 40. And this is a huge concern. But even for younger clients, it’s a big concern now because there’s so much pressure to the work the aging process. But as you agent as you look in the mirror and you’re like oh my god, like what happened to my face, it can really start to bring a lot of stuff up. And it’s not just about you know, the sides of your body. It’s about the appearance of the way that your skin looks and the way that your face looks and the way that different parts of your body changed because of the aging process. And it’s been really amazing to work with so many people over the years on this as well now that I’m in my mid 40s to be kind of going through this myself

And so I’m really excited to have Deb on the show today to talk about the intersection of these things. Deb Benfield has helped hundreds of women heal their relationship with food eating and their bodies in her 35 year career as a registered dietician nutritionist specializing in the prevention and treatment of disordered eating. She brings her wisdom, passion and lived experience to the intersection of pro aging and body liberation. She offers one on one coaching small group coaching and professional supervision. She owns a private practice of big hearted and wonderfully talented rds, specializing in weight neutral care and treating eating disorders. You can learn more about debit Deborah banfield.com. Let’s get started with the show.

Hi, Debra, welcome to the show.

Deb:
Hello, summer. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk to you.

Summer:
Yeah, I’m excited to have you here. Today we are going to unpack aging and how that intersects with body liberation. And I would love for you to start off just by telling everyone why you as a as a dietitian started to focus more on the intersection of of aging as it relates to like body image and eating disorder prevention and everything else that you do in your practice.

Deb:
Happy to. So I turned 60 4 and a half years ago, and I also became a grandmother for the first time at the same time. So I decided, I just got really curious about what the latest research was saying about how we can make choices to support ourselves as we age. And I was very distraught by the presence of a huge anti aging message. And you know, just so much that reminded me of all the Diet and Wellness culture mess. So I was very unhappy with what I found. And it was very hard for me to find podcasts and books and things like that, that didn’t have this edge of the same old same old message. So I got very frustrated with what I found. And a little sad that that’s what was out there and angry. So I decided to create something that I think women like me would be interested in. And women that need to be or are interested in being protected from died in wellness culture, because of their own histories. And that’s what I’ve discovered is there’s so many women with histories of their own recovery process and kind of breaking free from, you know, the livestock of diet culture and wellness culture, and then doing well and then their aging bodies, kind of send them to, you know, looking at things that make them think their bodies are a problem once again. And the vulnerability that starts to be experienced. If you’re a person who has struggled with your body story and diet industry, etc. And you hit aging, it’s like a whole nother wave, which that’s what it’s all about, like why that is how our culture makes that so and what we can do about it.

Summer:
Hmm, yeah, one of the pieces of feedback that I’ve heard quite frequently from people that I’ve worked with is that they will seek out information maybe around like, you know, perimenopause, or menopause like reading books and things like that. And there’s just always so much like you said, fat phobia and anti fat bias, as well as like recommendations around Yeah, making your body smaller, watching your weight eating a certain way. And it’s like, so hard to find information that is free of that, like Yeah,

Deb:
That’s safe for our consumption, right, exactly. Yes, it’s really upsetting. Yeah, it’s like the news that I think and I’m sure that I have like a very skewed perception because I’ve been doing this 35 years I’m very well versed and like anti diet I anti wellness culture. And so I it was just shocking and how like wait a minute, how could you guys be so blind to the damage that you’re doing with all this talk this verbiage this this you know, body shame. Wow was like just toxic mess. was like completely unaware just feels like there’s lack of awareness. Now I will say that the body positive bio diverse world I can’t find words to say because I’m not uncomfortable with body positive anymore, but I don’t know what to call it. Those that are trying to be free of Diet and Wellness culture. Those folks are comfortable when I speak up about whether I see is ageism, but the pro age and anti age folks will the anti age folks, so I’m not even gonna try. But the pro aging folks are also it’s so confusing. They’re also very fat phobic and lack biodiversity. And they’re not open. They’re not open to my, my concerns I get there is this white fragility versus like that we’re trying to be good. We’re our intentions are good. And like no curiosity about hospital change.

Summer:
Yeah, because it’s interesting. It’s about health, quote unquote, I’m assuming is their sort of?

Deb:
Well, I think, I think it’s very complicated. And I feel myself experiencing what I experienced eons ago was in the in the 80s. Around like learning how bad dieting was, yeah, it feels like I’m back in the same familiar like, No Man’s Land, or

Summer:
Wow. So you in the 80s, or an early adopter in terms of realizing diets didn’t work?

Deb:
Absolutely. Yeah, I was very fortunate, in that my first supervisor was a therapist, and she specialized in eating disorders. So I’ve like, as soon as I started practicing, I got lots of wisdom from a wonderful therapist about the fact that there was conversation. I mean, there was some research, it was started this way, pre Intuitive Eating book, like way before all of that. So we were, we were calling it like, just help that ever size without that actual way of calling it anything. We’re just calling it non diet. And like plugging along. It’s so nice to have this community now, that 30 years later, 40 years later. Yeah, but people know what you’re talking about when you use words. And they it’s like everybody knows what’s up. But I find myself very much alone and like, but look at this, like aging conversation about like, why it’s important for you to control your belly fat. We’ve forgotten all of the what we’ve learned about how dangerous that is. Because it’s dangerous to I am hearing women go through a lot of pain, because they feel all their old eating disorder stuff percolating up to the top again, it’s unfortunate and infuriating.

Summer:
Yeah, I’d actually be curious to ask you about that, if you don’t mind is just because I do think that this, you know, belly fat equals bad is I mean, it’s pervasive, no matter what generation but particularly in aging populations and perimenopause and menopausal folks. So, like, what? You know, can you speak to that? Like, do we need to be concerned about that? Like, I’d love to hear your how you sort of handle that with with people?

Deb:
Well, I feel like the truth is, if you remember what we learned about puberty, like there is a time that your body is not within your control. And I think that’s probably true, more than we realize, or more that we want to know. But certainly, during puberty, what happens is fast and furious, right? There’s an increase in body fat. And the belly area is affected when little girls are preparing to go through puberty. So there tends to be a little bit more belly fat. And it happens again, through menopause. And it freaks us out. Because what I hear over and over and over again, is like, all the things I’ve done don’t work anymore. That phrase is like, where a lot of women start. So a lot of women have been chronically, you know, doing some manipulation of their intake and their output to get a particularly, you know, somewhat more comfortable, socially acceptable body or waistline. And that’s no longer within your grasp. So you get more intense with your car restrictions, especially your car restrictions. And I think what actually happens is, you become disordered, or you return to your disorder. And so I don’t know, I am very focused on the whole person and I think I prioritize mental health. So for me, my issue is not what happens with belly fat. My issue is what happens to your brain when you’re restricting carbs, but how atmosphere to your lifeforce when you’re overly focused and grasping so desperately at controlling something that’s probably not within your control.

Summer:
Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Deb:
Yeah. And we’re also approaching a time of life when you’re more likely to have some health concerns. So I think that is also an issue because some of my clients click along pretty well. And then they get a health scare like a breast cancer scare. And it flares up this, also this interest in controlling what they’re eating in their body, just another kind of out of fear, just another health anxiety. And of course, they’re hearing that from their providers likely as well. So it’s, it’s a hard time. I mean, I think it’s our culture doesn’t make it easy to have a woman’s body anyway. But a aging bodies, woman, your woman’s body is just very vulnerable. And it’s all mindset. I mean, we don’t have to let that be the case. It can be a very powerful time as a woman who’s on the other side of menopause, or the great deal of power here. And I don’t know, I’m going to stop and just take a breath. And let’s see if you have a question because I can feel myself like headed down a very long route. I’m not sure. I’m not sure if this is where you want to go. But I do think there’s a lot to talk about when it comes to what happens with your body as you age and the messages that you get from our culture, the anti aging messages are so parallel to all the Diet and Wellness culture messages, and the parallels are just continue to blow my mind.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. So let’s kind of like talk about that. And, specifically, I’d love to start with something that we talked about before we hit record, which was aging concerns, right, and how you’re seeing as well as myself. And I think it’s kind of becoming a universal thing is that people who are younger and younger, being more concerned about aging. So I guess my question is just like, what have you observed? And like, Why do you think that is?

Deb:
Well, I’ve definitely been surprised that people telling me that they have been thinking about Botox, etc, since their 20s. And they have been looking at procedures to alter the appearance of aging, you know, 20s and 30s, and 40s. And it’s not, I think there’s a big push, and there’s a market for prevention of wrinkles, so to speak. I think it’s way more than that, like, sun exposure, all of that what changes in your skin that happen naturally, over time, have become such a focus for women earlier in their lives than I was anticipating. My original thought was like 50 and older but so many women have reached out and said, Can I come to I’m having the same thoughts. I’m an I’m in the same place, even though my actual age is not your age. And I’m 64. So it’s just fascinating to me, that women in their 30s are wanting to join me in this conversation. And I have some thoughts about why that is. I I think there are a couple of reasons why. I think I’m very curious about all of the filters, and wondering if the looking at the filters compared to your face isn’t pushing this a little bit faster. Also think that it may be true that some women have come to an acceptance that diets don’t work, that body size is probably something they need to stop fighting body size and shape. And maybe they can focus on their skin instead. Or maybe there’s marketing. Maybe the lobbies have seen that, oh, this is a place that we can mark it because this isn’t working anymore. Maybe we should move over here. I mean, that’s my other suspicion. I don’t this is not something I know. But it’s something I’m absorbing and hearing people talk about.

Summer:
Hmm, yeah. And I think the pervasiveness of skincare information online, like whereas, you know, pre social media, you wouldn’t, you’d see like the ole commercials and you see advertisements on bus stops, but now, you could literally spend hours a day, first of all, seeing people who have had worked on on their pace or prevented, you know, done things like to, you know, prevent wrinkles and whatnot. But second to that it’s almost like the science of it has become its own thing that like so many influencers talk about and, and so it’s almost like wellness in a way. You know, it’s almost like like wellness. It’s like an appendage of wellness, it’s like skincare and your exposure to like all of the different products, all of the different things that you can do is just that much more in your face and not much more pervasive than it used to be. And, yeah, and capitalism, obviously, like they know they can make so much money off of that.

Deb:
So well, serum, this serum, this serum serum, this and that. I mean, how many theorems can you apply? And I think there’s, they’re not cheap, right? No, no, if at all, there’s some sort of vulnerability around this conversation that is bigger than it used to be. And I’m curious, though, where that come from? Yeah, I have some thoughts about the vulnerability piece that’s about aging in general. This is Sonia Taylor’s work, you know, the whole body hierarchy. And as you age, because the default body as young as you age, it pushed you more to the margins. So as yet another factor that could push you to the margins, there may be other things going on, likely. And grasping that looking young may or may not be within the realm of possibility. But grasping toward being thin, would push you more toward that place of belonging, that place of being within the place of like the default body being passing for the default body, being within proximity to the default body, there’s something about the thinness and the use, they’re both just so much a part of the center of in the ideal and the default, that if you can grasp that either one of those, and why not grasp or both. You know, if you can’t have, there are some things you can’t control and pass for. But this, this may be something you could try, like the serums, and all of the cosmetic, or the dermatological procedures could make you appear to be younger, so why not try that. And then all of the Diet and Wellness and exercise too. So there’s something there’s something about us wanting to belong, that my that’s where my heart goes, like people are just trying to belong, people are just trying to have some power, people are just trying to be safe. You know, people are just trying to be within that. And life isn’t going that way. You’re aging. We’re all aging every day. So you’re pushing against that.

Summer:
Yeah, I think it’s really tied to classism to like when I think about my own thoughts around it, and I really try to dig deep as to like, where Why do I feel that pressure too and like, what am I really signaling, if I were to engage in that, and like, I unpack this a lot in my own head, I have far too much self awareness. Probably a point of diminishing point of returns for me, but but it really, for me, it was like it’s classism. Like it’s like that ability, right? And as the nurses to it’s all tied to that as well. And so yeah, I just wanted to throw that one in the mix, too.

Deb:
Yeah, I appreciate that. Yes, certainly. I agree.

Summer:
Yeah. So with that, like I think and first of all, like I mean, we’re I think we’re both on the same page here that we’re not judging anyone for engaging in these procedures, or, like, you could check out my drawer, I have a lot of skincare, you know what I mean? Like, we’re not immune to it. But I think that like, really, it’s coming back to, you know, internalized ageism. And so, what’s your advice? Like? How do we start to, you know, how do we start to unpack that? How can we really challenge those beliefs? What are some ways to do that?

Deb:
I first think just like you did when you were trying to push against diet, culture, educate yourself, because there are so many myths and stereotypes about aging. But I think it’s really important to learn the truth to really educate yourself about the facts about aging. And you can start to see that just like every other prejudice, we have, like you have a toddler at your house. So probably there are some books that you’ve read, that have these old figures in them, and all the attributes are associated with them are rarely positive, very rarely positive. So we’ve all been exposed to the storyline of what it’s like to be old for our entire lives. Just like what it’s like to be fat or lack or any other thing that we breathe in these stories, and to start to realize that you’re carrying them, you know, to educate yourself and like, oh, that’s terribly ageist to me to think, like, just because you’ve reached a certain age, you are no longer sexual. Just because you’ve reached a certain age are no longer, like, intelligent and quick witted, you know, the stories that we have needs to be challenged within ourselves. Because guess what, if you’re lucky, you’re going to age two. So if you if you get to a certain age, and you still hold those beliefs, it’s harmful. The route there’s an I, I’m gonna recommend some books. And some there’s one particular like TED Talk, that I think it will be a great starting place for folks. So Becca Levy has written a book called breaking the age code. And her research is so powerful and fascinating, in to the degree that if you have a negative association with aging, your life expectancy is shortened by seven and a half years. It’s real. It’s very real, her research is amazing. So I recommend that and Tracy Gendron ‘s book called ageism unmasked, exploring age bias and how to end it. It’s what I did was I read everything. And through the lens of like all of the diet and anti fat bias math. And there were a lot of books that got pitched. So this is a curated short list. Yeah, it’s two books. Yeah, those two books are safe. There’s a TED talk that I think is a perfect place to start. And it’s Ashton Applewhite. And her book is called this chair rocks. She’s done a beautiful job, really getting, not only is she an activist around ageism, but she is an educator about how we can all identify our internalized ageism. And I think that’s really important. I think that’s the most important thing of all, I mean, we need to, of course, treat one another kindly without prejudice. But the conversation you’re having with yourself, about your aging body, is what I’m on fire about. And all of this is like noticing your own thoughts and educating yourself. But just like everything else you do with body image, the same exact thing, like I had a dear friend talk to me about like, rolling over in bed and looking at her arm and like what noticing, you know, a change the texture of her skin, right? Because I think she’s in her 50s. So that what do you say to yourself, when you notice that? Like, can you catch yourself and just like, My strategy is just to notice what is without making a story up about it is like, yes, my skin is changing? Yes, my skin was different. I don’t know when it changed. But I didn’t notice that before. You know, this, this. Those are facts without judgment, the story about oh, no, look at that, you know, that all of the shame that starts to get wrapped up in it, and the fear, like that’s where the opportunity is, right? When you can shift out of so many storylines attached to what you’re noticing. And just simply notice what is because it is your skin is changing, your body is changing. And we don’t have to make it so we don’t have to make it an emergency. We don’t have to make it bad. It’s hard.

Summer:
It is hard. Yeah. And I think like exposure too, like, we’re, we’re the visibility of the aging population is not, it’s not like you have to go find it. I think it’s not, there’s not a lot of media. There’s, you know, the dominant demographic on social media is like, I don’t even know, like teenagers to 35 But like, I’m not sure so. And like, I think similarly like curating that like if you’re finding wow, you know, looking at this person’s face really makes me fixate on my own face. You know what I mean? Like, I’ve had to unfollow people, because I’m like, there’s just so much focus on your skin looking a certain way. And it’s not helpful. So just been really discerning about that, I think is like you said, I mean, it’s the same process of is

Deb:
is the same process. It’s just through just another kind of lens. But the thing that I know to be true, and again, it’s really hard for me to know if something is like my skewed perception because I’m noticing it or because I’m way into it right now. But I think there is a pro aging movement. Yeah, I think I think that’s happening. My issue is that there’s the Same bodies, just the same thin white women with silver hair. It’s, there’s no diversity within it. And that’s my issue. And I just keep pointing it out and I am not well received. It’s not, it’s not a welcome notice. Yeah, we have more work to do.

And so my hope is that the pro aging movement will start to listen that this is this is a conversation we need to have. And so maybe, maybe there’s some openness. But I appreciate people like you that are really good at the body image work, like including aging within us process.

Summer:
Oh, yeah, it’s so important. I think sometimes with a pro aging thing, too. It’s like, you’re, it’s like pro aging, but only in a certain way, like, to your point, you know, like, there’s not a lot of diversity in it. And so, or, like, you can still do procedures, but it just has to look like you didn’t like I think, I don’t know if that we’re talking about the same pro aging folks. But that is something that I’ve just sort of observed, as well as just that, like, you know, it’s almost like these people who are held up as like, look, this person ages with grace, but they’ve probably also have done a whole bunch of stuff, too. It’s just it doesn’t look super obvious, like, you know, maybe somebody else who you can really tell. So it’s like there’s Yeah, it’s just, there’s a lot there. I think,

Deb:
again, to return to the parallels. I mean, I think people like you and me are like we’ve done a lot of work to understand anti fat bias and how it shows up in ourselves and in our world and out in the world. And if you apply the same way, you’ll start to see that this is the same thing. It’s just the same thing. I mean, you know, the concept of the good fatty, the women in fat bodies, who are exercising and doing all these things are called good fatties is the same what you just described as the same thing to me like ag well, like, what does that mean? What does that mean? And that’s like the medicalization, you know, the pharmaceuticals, the programs to buy this just the same thing. The same stuff like fashion, same thing, like very little available. You know, it’s, I’m telling you, if you think of everything that you learned about anti fat bias, and just put a gene to the side, you’ll see Yep, check, check. And so I’m hopeful because there is movement afoot. Sometimes it feels like we’re going two steps forward and one step back. And it’s not a straight line. But there is movement in the vibration around body size. So I’m hopeful that this is just new. And that maybe over time, we can get some footing in this. But it feels brand new, it feels like nobody’s really speaking to it. And when you talk about, like the pro aging movement, what I’m noticing with companies who want to try to include older women, they just kind of throw this model in the mix of silver hair, just like that’s it. That’s some sort of weird tokenism around silver hairs. Like, that’s not what we’re talking about. We need a lot more than that.

Summer:
Yeah, so true. So one of the other things I really wanted to talk to you about was, you know, you mentioned like health scares, and even just like increased concerns, I think about health and mortality as you get older. And so how do you encourage people to sort of deal with that without going down this road of like, becoming like health obsessed and developing like disordered habits with food because they’re so concerned about, like, you know, their health and things like that?

Deb:
Right? It’s tricky business because you are, again, vulnerable to your fears, like you want to do whatever you can to protect yourself and to stay well, but I feel like it’s like with most things, there’s like a limit to that. Are you going to make yourself so rigid within that that you don’t have? You can’t relax in a social setting or you can’t have pleasure with food anymore? It just like to me there’s a place that you stay attuned to yourself, where you go, I’m going to try to be intentional about my choices, so I can deal with whatever this health issue and I’m gonna see if I can also stay true to what makes me enjoy my life. Because what is the point if you’re going To get all rigid and restrictive and end up back in that sad place, so it’s very dark place to be all in are obsessive restrictions. So it’s I think it’s, it’s not easy, especially if you’ve been there before, especially if that was part of your experience when you were younger. Those are the folks that I hear a lot from. It’s like, I had this one health scare, and I’m way back to where I was when I was boy and my eating disorder. And that’s really hard.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you find like that? Because I know eating disorders are really associated with younger people. And I don’t think it’s talked about in older populations. What do you notice? Do you notice? Like, it’s really, there’s not like a generation, like it doesn’t swing more towards one generation, like it impacts all generations?

Deb:
I don’t, I don’t think that we have good data. I just can only report on what I hear. And of course, I hear from women who are in their 60s and 70s, battling an eating disorder or disordered eating all day, every day. So it’s very real. I know, I wish we had data to refer to.

Summer:
Yeah. Wow. It’s been so lovely having you here having this conversation? And I really appreciate you giving us like some specific resources to continue to do this work on our own. Where can people find more of you, Deborah?

Deb:
So my website is my name DEBRA Benfield, Debra banfield.com. And on Social, I’m aging bodies aberration. And I’m most active on Instagram. I haven’t talked account, but I rarely go there. I have Facebook, but I rarely go there. So if you’re on Instagram, I’m really easy to find. And all the programming that I’m offering is all going to be on my website.

Summer:
Yeah. And so how do you help people just so that we know because I know you’re a dietitian. So like, what’s your like? So people want to come and figure out how they can work with you like, how do you help them.

Deb:
So I am doing groups that are like small group, like eight week group processes. I have a membership community that’s starting up the summer. And I still do one on ones. So there are three very distinct ways that you can work with me. My next group is starting in July, July 11. So you can sign up to join that there’s a waiting list available on my website, but that you can start registration will open like mid June.

Summer:
I mean, amazing. And would you say it’s for people who like, want to heal their relationship with food who are like, is it what who’s it for? I guess that’s the question

Deb:
It’s for women midlife and older who really want to find a way to care for themselves. So they are able to age the way they want to age without the harm of Diet and Wellness culture, to kind of really continue to stay true to body liberation. While they’re learning to care for themselves.

Summer:
Great, amazing. And you have a freebie on your website, which is

Deb:
which is really kind of untangling yourself from what you’ve been conditioned to believe about your body, your body story, your aging body story.

Summer:
Great, amazing. I will link to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here today. It’s been such a pleasure.

Deb:
Thank you for the conversation.

Summer:
Rock on.

I hope you took away some good stuff from this episode. I certainly really enjoyed this conversation. It just feels so relevant to me personally, as well as the clients that I work with. You can find the show notes for this episode with all the links and books that Deb mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 270 Thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.