We also explore her story of going to a fat camp, and myths about diabetes.

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Summer:
This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance. With personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group. This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting, and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 252. And I’m with Esther tambi, registered dietitian and certified diabetes care and education specialist. We’re talking about her story of going to fat camp when she was a kid myths about diabetes and how to make healthy changes that won’t backfire or trigger disordered habits. You can find the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 252. Let me give it a shout out to SS Nora Lee who left this review. I’ve known about this way of thinking for some time now. But summer puts it all in such a way that makes sense. She has been able to answer all of my questions and erase all of my doubts about no dieting, body image and intuitive eating. I know she has forever changed me I wish I would have learned this years ago Better late than never fab over 50 Thank you so much. I really appreciate that review. And I’m just so grateful that it’s had a positive impact on your life. You can leave a review by going to Apple podcasts or iTunes or whatever it’s called and searching for eat the rules, click ratings and reviews and then click to leave a review. You can also subscribe to the show that’s a big help for me as well helps keep this show going. Helps keep my self esteem going. No, I’m just kidding. Well, maybe it helps a bit. And I don’t, I’m not gonna lie. And also you can grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. If you’re a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap because it’s January, I thought let’s do a show about health changes and things like that. Because I know that it’s that time of year where maybe we feel inspired to make changes or if you’re like me, like it’s the last thing you want to do in January because you just want to hibernate, but a lot of people do want to make some changes. And we have this idea that we need to like make all these sweeping changes. And it’s like, Okay, I’m going to do these 10 things now. And it just always backfires. In addition to that it’s like how can we make health changes if we have a history of disordered behaviors and disordered eating? Like how do you kind of manage those two things concurrently. So that’s why I wanted to have Esther on the show to have a really great conversation. I learned some really great things from this conversation. So I’m super excited for you to hear it too. Esther tambi is a registered dietitian and certified diabetes care and education specialist based in Long Island, New York. She is the founder of Esther tambi nutrition and co founder and executive director of fight through flights Inc, a nonprofit organization that aims to empower and support the healing of black women living with breast cancer and breast cancer survivors. Esther has spent her career working in underserved communities providing nutrition education and counseling to individuals with chronic illnesses, such as diabetes, hypertension, chronic kidney disease and HIV AIDS. I’m super excited for this interview. Let’s get started with the show. Hi, Esther, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah. And so I’m super excited to have you here. And I know you just got back from a really great trip. So hopefully you’re feeling a mix of jetlag as well as joy from that trip. I would love for you to start out just by telling everyone just a little bit about like your your relationship with with your body and food when you were when you were growing up,

Esther:
I have to say Now like most people but majority did grow up with a complicated relationship. I would say with Bodhi. I didn’t realize who stuck to later on. But, you know, I was going through middle school in high school realizing I did have a different body type I was considered to be one of the best My kids have among my friends and group. So it was maybe a middle school, I actually attended a weight loss camp. And I really enjoyed it that to the point that I went back for multiple summers and then became a counselor. And I did that camp weight loss camp for 10 summers of my life, which played a big role in my relationship with food and body, but also seeing how harmful it was after I left that environment. So in the moment as a camper, it was a positive experience as it provided a place of belonging, a place of comfort and feeling. Okay, within my body. As I got older, or started to study nutrition, I realized how harmful it was as what it did in regards to restriction and fixation on food and body.

Summer:
Yeah, so what was how did that influence your relationship with food, then,

Esther:
you know, that’s what I’m introduced to like diet foods. So I was first introduced to date. So a babe leave and 100 Calorie snacks from camp, counting calories was a thing that pretty much learned from there. And then even like, weekly weigh ins and all that stuff, just those were things that I wasn’t doing prior to camp, but that’s where I learned it. But in that mindset, it was, that was gonna get me to be thinner. And this is the thing to do. So just did it didn’t know what it was actually doing to me in the long run. But that led to many years of dieting and other extremes.

Summer:
Yeah, and did like was was Did your weight cycle through those years as as a result, like were you sort of on that pattern of like, you know, restrict for a while, and then like, you know, everything sort of comes back and then you’re kind of repeat over?

Esther:
Yeah, so during the process of like, the way the camp works, for the most part, it was pretty much a restrict cycle with weight, and behavior. So you know, you go to camp, depending on how long you go, that could be a whole summer. So you’re in full restriction mode, extreme exercise, intense exercise that you wouldn’t do on a normal basis. So you know, you’re at this camp throughout the day, eight hours of the day, requires activities, food, and all that words, usually go back home, you might work out for an hour day, if so, but you know, not everything is not controlled. So you know that summer time, you’re at camp, maybe the first three months after camp, you’re still trying to follow that regimen, usually around January to February, March, you start to slip or just can’t keep up with what was going on. And then before you know it, enrollment for the next summer comes around, and you’re back at camp because you realize what it did for you, the summer before you either miss your friend or you just like that belonging and you go back. So that’s where that cycle kind of happens.

Summer:
Wow, yeah. How do you feel about those camps, and maybe even the one you went to now?

Esther:
Now, I’m 100%, I would say against them, or I don’t think they’re there, right? So you, when you think about coming to campus, you could be at the end of eight years old, and you’re being restricted to 1200 calories a day, right? With intense exercise. And you also have to think that, you know, if you’re eight, you’re still growing 12, you’re still growing 15, you’re still growing. So this is also not healthy to the development of your body. But at that mindset, that’s not a concern, because all you’re thinking about is losing weight, whether you chose to go there on your own, or your parents send you there. So it does more harm in the end.

Summer:
Yeah. And I imagine it’s kind of complicated, because like you said, it would give you this sense of belonging. And I’m sure going back to school in September, like you would feel really great, and then makes you want to go back and have that experience again. So it’s tricky, isn’t it? So how did you then like what helps you sort of heal that relationship with food? Like what helped you to stop that restriction, and that that cycle that you were in?

Esther:
I would say, that was just like an ongoing thing of, you know, throughout the years of working on my relationship with food, eventually, just having a better understanding of food and being tired of following diets or going to Weight Watchers, but it was just one of those things that happen where pretty much was exhausted from being hyper fixated on certain stuff.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. And so what then what inspired you to become a dietitian,

Esther:
I originally wanted to actually go to school for something else. And I realized that’s not what I wanted to do. I wanted to actually do become a bariatric surgeon. So I was on the pre med route through just going through classes and my experiences, I can’t I wanted a different type of experience with clients. And then I just came about learning about nutrition, and I went back to do my nutrition work.

Summer:
Yeah. Wow. So it kind of did like a big one at there in terms of your focus and how you hope People now. Yeah, yeah. And so I know that you offer you offer some, like nutritional and health support for a lot of different conditions. But one of the you do have a program that’s centered around around diabetes. And I think that there’s obviously a lot of like myths and confusion around diabetes, what are some of the big myths that you that you see being promoted and sort of like, you know, traditional messaging,

Esther:
I would say a lot of it, some of the messaging comes from a lot of judgment and shame. So, you know, depending, we’ll talk more about the type two diabetes, but there’s a plane that you cause your diabetes, your weight called your diabetes, if you live in a larger body, or you’re fat, you will have type two diabetes, there’s also the myth that sugar causes diabetes. So I think it’s the the assumption of knowing the difference between correlation versus causation. So there’s a correlation between weight and progression of diabetes, or having diabetes, but weight does not cause diabetes, same as weight loss will not necessarily decrease your chances of diabetes, or improve your diabetes way off is more so like, can be an outcome, but that is not the enemy’s to it. And just also, yeah, so a lot of that that comes up with those type of myths. But yeah, there, there’s something I was gonna say. And it completely blanked out.

Summer:
If it comes back, you can let me know. Yeah. So then, like, See, I mean, you hit on two, I think two of the major ones, right? It’s just this idea that like weight causes diabetes, as well as that, like, sugar causes diabetes. So if you’re open to it, I’d love to unpack that a bit. Like if, if sugar doesn’t cause diabetes, like what are some of the big contributors? Like is it more genetics, like what sort of contributes to diabetes?

Esther:
Type Two Diabetes, because now you know, based on the type of diabetes, where type two, this is due to insulin resistance, whereas type one that’s auto immune, like you’re the you are dependent on insulin. So there’s also that big difference there, too. So even just knowing but yeah, there is genetics, there is lifestyle factors that can affect it can weight be one of those issues, yes, but can also lead to much physical inactivity, or the insulin resistance, but just knowing that there’s so many other things that can affect your blood sugar to be elevated and high. So that can even just be medication, stress, lack of sleep, you know, if you’re on your period, you know, your menstrual cycle plays a role. So there are many other things that do impact our blood sugar.

Summer:
Yeah, I think that like, that’s like, I mean, you just named so many that I don’t think people think of in terms of like sleep or medication, or the, you know, stress and things like that, because we all think it’s just food, you know, it’s like, well, if I eat this thing, then that’s, you know, it’s because of what I’m eating. And that creates a lot of obviously, like, kind of shame around food. And it sounds like it doesn’t even necessarily help with the condition, like, especially if we’re talking about like, type two diabetes, if you don’t look at kind of like the overall the all, like all the different factors that can come into play.

Esther:
Yes, I think it’s just being able to look at it as a whole. But even then, you know, if you do have diabetes, whether it be type one or type two, it is not the end, you know, you can still thrive with that you can still go to holiday gatherings, you can still live your best life, you can still travel and manage your diabetes. So the other thing also, one thing about myth is knowing that you can manage diabetes is not reversible. And I think that’s a big thing to understand that it’s not reversible. There’s currently no cure for diabetes, you can have your diabetes go into remission if you have type two, but it is not reversible. And that can be dangerous to have that type of thought process or thought, you know, thinking that as you now we’ll try to do all types of extremes to reverse this that diagnosis where in reality, it is a perfect progressive diagnosis, you know, this can continue to build or have complications. So just knowing that it is something that can be managed and not reversed or cured can also change how one thinks about their the way to go about their medical treatment.

Summer:
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Cuz I feel like in sort of more wellness communities that are really oriented towards diet culture, like they do make claims that you can reverse it. And so that’s really interesting to sort of hear that that’s not necessarily true.

Esther:
Yeah, no, especially you know, if you have type one definitely cannot reverse that. So even as a person with type one diabetes, I hear, Oh, you can reverse diabetes. That’s not true, but that’s also a smack in the face. So someone living with type one diabetes all their life and knowing that they cannot reverse their situation, you know, there is that you can go into remission. So maybe you’re a one C is no longer at a diabetes level does not mean that the diabetes is gone. Because I did not happen to cause your blood sugar to go back up, or that even if you go back up any day, it’s just now a matter of how you manage your diabetes, but there’s no cure for it.

Summer:
Yeah. Okay. Okay, so. So with that, like, I’d love to sort of talk about just like, not not even related necessarily to like diabetes, but just overall, like, if somebody wants to make, you know, nutritional changes in order to like, perhaps improve their just how they feel, improve their health, how they feel, but they have a history of disordered eating, like, what’s your what’s your advice? Or how do you sort of approach that when you’re working with people,

Esther:
I would say, depend on the individual and where they are. So what what exactly does it mean to them to change their eating habits? Or what does health mean to them? So they want to improve their nutrition? Is it that they’re improving their hydration? Maybe they’re not drinking enough work throughout the day? Are they getting enough fiber throughout the day? Are they eating enough? You know, I can’t see there’s one general thing to say for any individual with disordered eating, because everyone will vary. But I think the first thing is understanding what is health to them? And what is it that they’re trying to improve? But it can be something as simple as well, maybe you’re not hydrated enough throughout the day? How can we increase your hydration, because even you know, if you are dehydrated, that increases your blood sugar, because there’s that concentration of your blood sugar. So maybe we need to increase water throughout the day to help with hydration that can help with your blood sugar level, maybe you’re realizing that you’re eating but you’re still hungry, you didn’t eat enough? Or maybe we can add in fiber to your meal, like how can we assess what you’ve had. So I do think it varies for every individual as nutrition is very individual.

Summer:
But that’s so helpful. Like I don’t think I ever would have thought like or I’ve ever read that like to increase potentially increased hydration as a way to manage blood sugar. Because I think immediately people go to like, I have to just stop eating, like I have eat low carb, or I have to cut out sugar. But everything you mentioned, there was more about like adding stuff instead of taking it away.

Esther:
Yeah, so definitely, I surely believe like we don’t need to restrict when we can still add things in. So just looking at what one may not be doing versus Well, I’m gonna give you this meal plan. And you do all this work as well. If you’re, I can’t tell you drink eight glasses of water a day if you barely drink, too. So how can we get you up there? Like what can we do to add but to not try to go to that full extreme. Just like to say like no one’s cars, I’m not going to tell you not to eat cars. But what can you do to consume those carbs, we need to pair it with a fat and a protein. So understanding that you know what a fad protein is and how to add that to a meal. But there’s no need to have to take away the price of track because that will lead to a spiral of binge and some type of negative reaction which just pretty much feeds into the disordered eating.

Summer:
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Yeah, and you said something really important there like to just look at, like pairing foods with other like, you know, like protein and fats. And I think that again, that’s like, you know, not something that’s really mentioned because it’s like, oh, just do the keto diet, you know, which is about taking taking a whole bunch of stuff away. So I love that I feel like that’s super helpful for people to see it that way. It’s just like, Okay, how can we like build stuff up and like, you know, add things in it’s just really refreshing to hear because but at the same time that sort of goes with like, people want like a quick fix, you know, like people want to just like have that sort of like you know, okay, I’m going to do this and I’m gonna make all these changes all at once and I know before we started recording here like we were talking about how this this podcast episode is going air in January, and that’s sort of the mentality of January as people are like, okay, like this year is going to be different. I’m going to make these changes you know, new year new me all that BS. So how do you what’s your what What’s your sort of like? What’s your advice to someone who maybe wants to make changes? Like how do you sort of get over that mentality of like wanting to change everything at once,

Esther:
I would say pick one thing to focus on, whether it’s a new year or not, we’re gonna get overwhelmed trying to do it all is going to overwhelm you, some things won’t stick until we work on something else, or need to heal something else. But when we try to do everything at once, I, I feel that we’re setting up ourselves for some type of defeat. So why can’t we just pick on one thing and master that one thing until we’re ready to move on versus Well, I want to change my eating habits, increase my movement, get better sleep plus, do all that looks like that’s a lot. Plus, you still need to deal with like, like, pick one thing that we can focus on, and master. And it doesn’t have to be an extreme, it literally can be. Alright, let’s add one glass of water a day to what you normally drink if you want to increase your hydration. Alright, maybe you’re not getting enough fiber. Let’s see how we can add in a source of fiber, one meal a day and then maybe gradually go up to two meals or whatever the case may be. But slow is okay. We don’t need to rush everything.

Summer:
Yeah, I feel like it’s hard for people because you want immediate change. And you’re like, just, you know, you feel that like, you feel that drive of motivations or at certain times, but then it always back like I mean, it pretty much always backfires. Like, it’s not gonna stick. It’s like, you might feel like you’re in control for a week. And then you know, like, life, you realize your life just like you cannot maintain that. It’s just not gonna happen. Yeah. So with that, like, if someone’s making any sort of, you know, small incremental change, like adding a glass of water or something like that. And historically, they’ve maybe focused around weight, like, how do you? What do you suggest they sort of focus on instead as as like a way to assess like, how things are working for them.

Esther:
But when it comes to that, I guess it would be just because of the type of client and the work that I do. Not ever saying not to focus on weight, but I guess why are we focusing on weight? What does that mean to you? Like, is this need to get smaller, giving you power somewhere giving you access to something? What is that? So I’m never gonna say, Wait, does that matter? Because I understand the desire to lose weight. But Where’s that coming from? And why are we relating it to health, which, you know, we hear people think fitness equates to health. So I think that would be one of those things to come up with. However, one is really strong on wanting to lose weight with intentional weight loss. That’s when I would refer out I don’t focus on that.

Summer:
Yeah. Okay. Wow. So you would even just say, like, hey, we can’t work. We’re not, we’re not like a great fit here.

Esther:
If it’s completely like that, just all that’s wanted, like, hey, I need this diet plan. I want to lose X amount of pounds. Why did I lose weight this week? Why didn’t like, but I have had times of you know, based on the work I do, I am a weight inclusive dietitian is Hazel line. So that is not my priority? When it comes to the work I do. Good for you.

Summer:
I mean, I think that that’s like you have to stand true to your values and and what you believe in and, and I totally like, I’m the same way. But yeah, it’s tricky, right? Because some people like you know that you could probably help them but they’re just not, they’re not ready to, to have the approach that you’re they that you offer. So with like kind of setting intentions around, like how you’re like someone’s health and stuff like that. I feel like something that you’ve sort of like that we’ve been talking about here is like making like really slow incremental changes. So like, how do you work with someone who’s like making these slow, incremental changes, but feels like not a lot is sort of changing? Like, what’s your advice to them like to sort of, you know, stick with it, like, keep going.

Esther:
But I think it’s also just reflecting on how far you’ve come and what you’ve done. So sometimes, because we’re so stuck on progress as like a before and after picture, we’re only looking for the physical changes, and we don’t always look within what has changed. So always doing that type of reflection of a reminder, like, this is also what’s been done, or you may have not seen this change, but you know, that’s what has just been able to bring that level of awareness to them of what else is going on for them.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s so true, isn’t it? I feel like we always have a tendency to sort of look at something and think, Okay, here’s where I’m lacking, or here’s where I’m not enough, or here’s where I still have to go versus like, here’s what I’ve already done. Here’s how far I’ve come and, and looking at like the actual behavior changes versus like, yeah, there’s this sort of idea that you’re just going to like feel amazing all the time. Yeah. So I actually had a question from a listener that I wanted to throw your way because since you’re a dietitian, they had asked me like, What to do if they don’t like veggie bowls like so. On one hand, we, we like collectively, like sort of anti diet professionals, you know, advocate for eating things that are satisfying. At the same time, like, you know, things like vegetables like obviously do provide some benefit to our overall well being. Although, maybe my question, maybe my question is two parts. It’s like, how important is it? And then secondly, like if someone feels like they need to eat them, but but just like really doesn’t want to what’s your advice? So maybe let’s break it into two parts. Like, how important is that piece of the puzzle? Like if someone really just like does not crave that doesn’t find it satisfying?

Esther:
I would say not to eat it. So if you do not like something, there’s no need to force yourself to eat it. Now, what vegetables? Essentially what vegetables provide are either source of fiber, antioxidants and vitamins. So eventually, the thing you don’t like, how else can you get that source of fiber, vitamins or antioxidants in your day? So fiber, you may not like the vegetable, but maybe you like whole wheat bread or something that’s still a source of fiber that you’re putting into your body, right? Maybe you might get more fiber through lentils throughout the day, you know, if you’re getting through vitamins, you know, it could be through fruit. So you can still get the same nutrients from fruit that you would get in a vegetable, certain grains, they can be fortified, you can get those same nutrients that you would get in a vegetable, so it’s more so if you don’t like a vegetable, that’s perfectly fine. How else can you get those same exact nutrients somewhere else? That’s something to consider. But you’re not less of a person or doing it wrong, because you don’t eat vegetables, because you generally just don’t like it. So I’m never going to force someone to eat something they don’t like, especially if it’s not that site. I’m gonna want to work with you to figure out well, how can we get these sources of nutrients throughout the things you do? Enjoy?

Summer:
Yeah, wow, that’s super helpful. Like, I mean, most people wouldn’t expect a dietician to say that right? I don’t think

Esther:
I don’t, all the time, I still get in my fiber and nutrients other ways. And if you absolutely don’t get him vitamins and nutrients at all, that is why we do have multivitamins, of course, but would prefer for you to have a hole. But if you absolutely cannot have it through Whole Foods, they do make supplements in that case, which is the vitamins you can take a multivitamin.

Summer:
Yeah, that’s super helpful. And I know one other thing, and maybe this doesn’t apply to this particular person who asked this. But a lot of times when we’ve come from, like the diet mentality, we’re used to eating vegetables, like really, without any flavor, and it’s like, you know, butter, salt, like, garlic powder garlic on yet, like, you know what I mean? Like, flavor goes a long way too. So that’s also something to consider. But if obviously, like, to your point, if they don’t, if they still, you know, if that’s not satisfying, then like, that’s, it’s actually really refreshing to know that, like, you’re going to live, it’s going to be okay. Looks like so many people focused on that.

Esther:
Even with what you’re saying with the vegetables, that’s also what they’re considering vegetables and like, how are you prepared? Are they just thinking raw vegetables raw salad? Or are we doing like sauteed spinach with mushrooms and you know, adding that flavor to it, you can add in oil, you can add in fact, you can definitely add in all types of spices. So it doesn’t need to be a raw vegetable it can be cooked, you know, it can be tomato sauce that’s mixed in and some type of pasta that is still getting in nutrients, you know, tomatoes have lycopene in it. So I think it’s that understanding or staying away from the diamond how you like, I must eat raw veggies, because they can be you know, whether zero points or nothing at all. And that’s that type of stuff you want to avoid.

Summer:
Yeah, cuz I find people get so stressed out about it, like, especially when they if they come from a background of disordered eating, and now they’re starting to kind of give themselves permission to eat foods. And, and often, you know, the pendulum can kind of swing over where maybe they really don’t want to eat vegetables for a while, or very unlimited amounts. And some of the feedback I hear from clients and stuff is that, like, they stress out about that, like, they literally think that like something bad is going to happen because they haven’t been eating vegetables. And so it’s really, really lovely to hear you say that, like, you know, we can focus on it, getting the same nutrients and other areas and fiber and things like that.

Esther:
That’d be the best way to go about it. But I would definitely not want one to feel that they need to eat something just to you know, be quote unquote, good. Like, no, that’s not okay.

Summer:
awesome, super helpful. So as we start to wrap things up here, one of the things I wanted to ask you about because I know that I saw you were on the Kelly Clarkson show. You don’t mind me asking you about that, because I was like that is so. So you’re involved with an organization. You’re really you’re the co founder of fight through flights. Yeah, I would love for you to just tell people about it if you’re open to it.

Esther:
Thank you plates, comb found that it was my younger sister, and is a nonprofit that aims to support the healing of black women with breast cancer and survivors by providing them free wellness, and travel experiences as well as access to fitness, nutrition and mental health resources by black providers. So that was something that we co founded in August 2020, in honor of our older sister who passed away from breast cancer.

Summer:
Oh, I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s awful. But what an incredible cause and what an incredible organization and how cool is it that you got national coverage on the Kelly Clarkson show? That’s so cool.

Esther:
But yeah, that happened.

Summer:
December? Yeah, yeah, way to go. Well, you clearly do incredible work. And I really appreciate you. I know you I know, in your bio, like you were involved in some other organizations and like you’re involved with diversifying dietetics. And I saw like another nonprofit that you volunteer for. So you’re just you’re you’re doing some incredible stuff out there, including your own practice, and I really appreciate you taking the time today. Where can people find more of you?

Esther:
I’m on Instagram at EA t.the.rd. And then my website is Esther Tandy. nutrition.com. And those are the two places I’m usually can be found.

Summer:
Do you see people virtually like and I do is that or are you Where are you located?

Esther:
Because 100% virtual,

Summer:
okay, awesome. Perfect.
That’s fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it. It’s been such a pleasure and super helpful advice for everyone. Thank you for having me. Rock on. I hope you took away some really good stuff from that episode and feel less pressure to be so hyper fixated on health changes and behaviors. I know that I certainly learned a bunch there like especially just in terms of not having to eat vegetables like I was so pleasantly surprised answer. So you can find all the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 252. And thank you so much for listening this week. I really appreciate it. I will talk to you again soon. Rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on.