We talk about why we are culturally so obsessed with “wellness,” is it even helping us feel better, and the deceptive marketing that wellness brands use.

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Summer:
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This is episode 251. And I’m joined by Rina Raphael journalist and author of the gospel of wellness, gyms, gurus, goop and the false promise of self care. We’re talking about why we are culturally so obsessed with wellness, is it even helping us to feel better or be more well, and the deceptive marketing that wellness brands use and so much more you can find all the links and resources mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 251 I want to give a shout out to Bibi philologist 123 I made it said that wrong. I love this review. I love this. I appreciate this podcast so much. It’s smart and funny with great interviews and impeccable research summer knows her stuff and makes it accessible for any listener never fails to get me thinking. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for leaving that awesome review. And I see you’re from Canada to what’s up. You can leave a review for the show by going into Apple podcasts search for eat the rules, then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. You can also subscribe to this show via whatever platform you use, whether that be Spotify or Stitcher or Apple podcasts or any of the other ones that are out there. And don’t forget to grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com. Forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. If you are a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles, I have a free body image coaching roadmap for you. You can get that at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap, super excited about this interview. We recorded this a couple of months ago but I wanted to air it in the new year because we are going to be inundated with all the different wellness marketing that comes out in January. So what a better time than now to blow it up. Right. So Rena wrote an amazing book called The Gospel of wellness that I had the pleasure of reading and it was really well researched and super interesting just looking at all the different fads and trends across all of wellness, whether that be within yoga or skincare or products like supplements and things like that, like she goes deep into all the different realms of wellness. So super excited for you to hear this conversation. Rena Rafael is a journalist who covers health, wellness, tech and women’s issues. She contributes to publications such as the New York Times LA Times Men’s Health, and Fast Company Magazine, her industry newsletter well to do examines the latest in health and wellness. She’s also the author of the gospel of wellness. Let’s get started with the show. Hello, Reena, welcome to the show.

Rina:
Hi, thanks for having me.

Summer:
I’m super excited to have you here. I really enjoyed reading the Gospel of wellness. It was enlightening, scary and a very fun read at the same time. I would love to know from your perspective, like what what inspired you to write about and to research so many different components of the wellness industry?

Rina:
Yeah, well, it’s twofold. From a personal and professional standpoint. I started getting really into wellness culture about seven eight years ago back when you know, bone broth was in it’s no longer in as it used to be. And so I went to all the boutique gyms I got into clean eating every trend I kind of got into and I was a business journalist and the more I started getting into wellness, the more my pitches started reflecting my metamorphosis. So I ended up becoming a full time wellness industry reporter for Fast Company Magazine. So not only was I living the lifestyle, but I was also getting an inside look at the industry. So I was interviewing all the founders, everyone from you know bulletproof, Dave Asprey to goups Gwyneth Paltrow I was taking a look at their marketing camp Haynes, I was interviewing scientists. So it just came to be that over years of studying this and living it, I started to notice troubling trends. And that’s what the book is about, you know, it’s a nuanced take. There’s a lot of good in this industry. And there’s bad and there’s like a whole lot in between.

Summer:
Yeah,myeah. And so did you. I’m just curious. This is more a more question out of curiosity. But when you were writing the book, like, Did you because you would go to like the goop conference, and you go to like Dave Asprey, calm, like, you go to all these different things, and all these different classes and everything like, did you find that triggering as part of your research with your own relationship with with health and food and things like that?

Rina:
Well, a lot of the book includes some of my past reporting, or it’s just me reflecting on what I previously did. So it wasn’t as triggering because I had already lived through it. But some things yes, you know, it is really hard for me to report on trends like clean eating, or a diet fads. Because there’s these little nuggets that get stuck in your brain. And then you sort of become consumed. Like, just recently, I was doing, for example, research on a fiber rich diet. And I started becoming obsessed. I was like, am I eating enough fiber? Should I not be eating this? What am I eating? I you know, sometimes it is actually very hard for me not to get sucked into it. That’s because the marketing is so good. And that’s part of what my book is about that I’m not immune to any of this. Most women aren’t it’s so hard when it’s coming at you from every which angle from social media, Google results, your friends, television magazines, it’s really overwhelming at times.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing that, because I think it is really hard to completely take it from a very neutral perspective. So I would love to know why people and I suppose women in particular, have become so obsessed with with wellness, and I feel like I need to put that word in quotation marks almost.

Rina:
Right. How do you define wellness these days? I mean, it can mean anything from yoga to I don’t know, activated charcoal toothpaste. I mean, the term wellness has been absolutely butchered by an industry that’s very much hyper consumerist, but yeah, answering how we became such a self care nation. I mean, that’s kind of what my whole book is about. So I can’t go into everything. But I would say that there are a couple of unique American characteristics that primed us for it. And we also have very unique American problems. So speak to the average American woman, and she’s overwhelmed, stressed, burdened. There are poultry, childcare policies, there’s not enough maternity benefits. You know, look at the US healthcare system. There are legitimate complaints within America. Then you bring in stuff like tech dependence, the news, the political divide, you know, attacks and reproductive rights. I mean, there’s so much going on right now. And here comes an industry that sells women solutions, you’re fatigued, take a supplement, you’re worried about aging or ageism, within your industry, take this collagen powder, you’re lonely. Jim will be your church, your community, your congregation, whatever it is. So I understand why women are interested in it. At the same time, you know, when you think about America, you know, and I, again, I’m going to try to sum this up as quickly as possible, but we’re a hyper consumerist country. So we’re telling people to sort of shop their way out of things. And listen, this is how we express ourselves in this country, we’re not going to stop people from not buying things. So that’s how wellness became all the stuff you needed to buy your stuff you needed to do. At the same time. We are bred out of a Puritan work ethic, we actually believe that we can work our way to health, if we work super, super hard, we will get all the things that the wellness industry promises us, which is a life free of aging, sickness, whatever it is. And also, we’re a highly optimistic country. You know, we’re the country that ventured out west to secure our golden fortunes, we built Hollywood a dream factory, you know, the same roots that gave us snake oil salesman, allows us to believe in a very quick, simple solutions today, because it’s a lot easier to buy some juice or buy a supplement than to deal with the systemic issues. That makes us feel so unwell, so lonely, and so burnt out.

Summer:
Yeah, totally, totally. And one of the other ones that I really liked that you dove into was how bad medical experiences and that being something that also drives a higher proportion of of women specifically to wellness pursuits. I mean, I could really, really relate to that myself having struggled with different medical conditions, especially in the last few years. But yeah, I’d love to know more about just like what you sort of discovered when you when you looked at it from that perspective, too.

Rina:
Yeah, I spoke to a lot of women who are dissatisfied with men. medical industry. And for various reasons, there were some women who felt that they were being ignored, mistreated, or gaslit by their doctor, or their doctor would blame them for any mysterious medical condition that they had. So there’s that. But there’s also a bunch of women, especially those suffering from chronic conditions, who don’t find treatments within the medical industry. And when you are dealing with a chronic condition, and you are desperate, you might veer towards another industry that is selling you a solution. Now, just because medicine doesn’t have the answers, doesn’t mean let’s say alternative medicine does have the answers. And you know, I go into the book, the fact that what we really need to do is advocate for more research into women’s health conditions, because women weren’t prioritized until the 90s, they were left out of a lot of clinical trials until 1993. So really, we have to put the impetus on medicine, really putting women’s bodies first. But instead, what we get with this industry is kind of like, either, you know, a lot of times scams or sham solutions, or it kind of puts all of the impetus on people themselves to cure themselves. And that was the other thing that I should have mentioned about how America is primed for this. We’re a very individualistic nation. So instead of telling people, Hey, we need to get together and advocate for women’s health, it’s all about what you alone can buy to try to make yourself feel better.

Summer:
Yeah. Wow, that is so true. And so with that, like, I guess the question kind of comes about is like, you know, is wellness even working? Right, and one of the quotes that you had was in wellness, the cure occasionally becomes worse than the disease. So what did you notice when you sort of looked at like, Is this even working?

Rina:
Yeah, it’s a tough question to answer, because I don’t want to paint with too wide a brush, right? Sure. I think it’s great that people have more options these days to work out to access more nutritious choices, like I don’t gloss over the fact that even when you go to the airport, now, you can get far more fresh food, or that you can just, you know, fire up YouTube and get a fitness class, those things are great. The issue is that a lot of this industry has become infused with productivity pressures, it’s exaggerating, sometimes what you have to do, or is just trying to sell you something. And that’s excluding a lot of people, or, again, just the average woman, they can’t work out every single day, they can’t, you know, quote, unquote, eat clean, or buy fully organic, or buy all this stuff for their self care, you know, so that’s where I think is becoming a little problematic. And hyper consumerist. And, you know, I also take issue with some of the messaging, you know, I have a chapter that’s called, why the hell’s the advice, always yoga? You know, if you’re burnt out from work, if you feel like you’re not getting support in your life, from your community or from your spouse, why do we feel like we’re told we have to take a bubble bath? How is that going to solve anything? You know, I feel like it’s almost silencing women or just sort of masking the symptoms. And funny enough, you know, I spoke to so many women who said that one of the issues they had with medicine is that, you know, they felt like it was not addressing the root issues, right, which is kind of a trope. That’s not true. Of course, doctors also tried to look for the root issues as to why we’re sick, but then they do the same exact thing with wellness, as if a bubble bath or a supplement, or whatever it is, is really going to get at the root cause of why you’re so unwell. Or what’s wrong in this country that’s making women so stressed and overburdened.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. So interesting, isn’t it? And so yeah, I love that you you’ve said a few times, like this idea of it being like a, like a self care nation. But and I know, one of the other quotes that I sort of pulled was that, though it arguably, it’s one that still lacks the fundamentals of, of well being right, like we’re trying to put all these band aids on it, but we’re not actually, you know, collectively feeling any better or changing any of the real quarter sort of like systemic changes that need to happen to make people have less stress in their lives.

Rina:
Yeah, I mean, take an issue like workplace wellness programs, right? You know, you go to HR, and you say, I can’t deal with the stress, and I’m being, you know, emails and pinged at all hours, when I’m back at home, it’s unsustainable. And then they say, Well, have you tried meditation? You know, it puts the burden on the person and then if you don’t become Zen enough, right to sort of toe the company line, you blame yourself, like I didn’t do it right, or I didn’t spend enough time on it. It’s a sense of victim blaming.

Summer:
Yeah, and it totally kind of I think the other thing too is we become so obsessed we can become like so obsessed with it, because we think there’s something wrong with us. The to a detriment to our own well being as well. Like we keep trying to add more and more stuff, but that takes away like that. That creates more stress. Like there’s a diminishing point of returns with wellness, right? Because if I think about my own obsession Without stuff, I was kind of like the healthy person on paper, all the stuff that I was doing, and yet I was making myself very unwell. Because it was such an obsession and I was burning myself into the ground. Like it’s like, you know, there’s it was not well for me at all. And I think that that’s probably true for a lot of people too. And you talk about that too, just about how that can lead to things like you know orthorexia, or just obsessive behaviors.

Rina:
Yeah, you know, I make the argument that we can be in danger of fetish sizing health, instead of just naturally folding it into our lives. And yes, you get things like orthorexia, but even people who who suffer from fitness OCD, because they became obsessed with their Fitbit. And if they didn’t get a certain amount of steps, or they didn’t work out as many miles as they wanted to, they would punish themselves and say, Oh, I can’t have a meal later today. So listen, I’m not saying this is the every single woman, I’m just saying that we have to be on the lookout for these sorts of things. And I don’t know that we necessarily thought that the industry would end up this way. And some of it has to do with social media with, you know, influencers, you know, I have a whole section on Fit fluences and that how that impacts women. But there are some really troubling trends that we’re seeing that are coming out now. And it’s saddening, because I think this industry was built on very good intentions, and in some ways, just gotten out of control.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, like one of the things I talk about when I’m talking about diet culture is how it really takes our you know, steals our time, our energy and our money. And I think, what I enjoyed about how you looked at so many different facets, like you looked at like beauty, the beauty industry and crystals and like meditation and yoga and like everything, you know, and how the all of those things can sort of go down that same path where ultimately it steals your time and energy and money and may not yield kind of like the magic solution that you’re ultimately looking for.

Rina:
Yeah, or it can have the opposite effect, you know, talking about let’s say, fit fluence, there’s who are social media influencers who sort of show off a very toned body and sort of propel this idea that it’s just a matter of squeezing in a workout, even though you know, the audience isn’t subject to how many workouts they’re doing, or if even their photos are photoshopped. But, you know, I was speaking to some experts who said that, you know, right now, the average woman is, you know, seeing photos of fit fluences who are super, you know, lean that have, you know, muscle, and then they have really, really curvy celebrities like Kim Kardashian. So now you have almost three pressures riding on women today, we need to be thin, curvy, and toned. You know, I make the joke where you’re like, you know, you almost long for the days where we just have to be super skinny, you know, like, how can you keep up with all this. And the sad part is, is that it’s actually preventing people from joining a gym, they think that they have to be that fit that thin to join a gym. And actually, I believe it was mind body that did a poll that said that 50% of Americans and 2020 experience gyms intimidation, which is that they felt like they had to lose weight to get toned before they joined the gym. I mean, this is how I say it’s kind of getting out of control. And it’s counterproductive.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think well, just the whole idea of like, what, you know, that fitness has a look is ultimately, you know, just at a detriment to all of that as well, because you talked to this too, is just how like even like the Fit fluence errs, you call them like, they feel like they have to use words like toned and lean and things like that, because otherwise, like they won’t get as much engagement or it’s like part of their marketing. And yeah, it’s like, wholly problematic on the other side of it, because it’s just upholding these beauty ideals that that are fat phobic, and are quite harmful to individuals as well.

Rina:
Yeah. And there were some studies that showed that actually fit flu answers were almost more damaging than let’s say, a Vogue photo spread or photos of models because it looks achievable. And because it’s couched in the language of health, you think, oh, that’s what I need to be to be healthy, even though you don’t need to be totally like an Olympian to be healthy. You know, a lot of that is Aesthetic Fitness. But this is where sometimes it’s actually more harmful than the sort of stuff a lot of us grew up with in the 90s. And then, you know, I spoke to one health expert, you know, who told me that she was seeing a steady stream of young gym goers, who all had the same lower back pain. And this was the pain that’s usually associated with an older segment of the population. And the issue was that they were doing too many booty building exercises, because they felt like they needed to get a big but you know, along with a whole bunch of muscles. I mean, you know, again, this is not the average woman, but we’re seeing more and more cases like this.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I’d love to talk to you about marketing, because I think that there’s a lot of stuff that we could go into here. But one of the things that I enjoyed was how you block the trend around things being like quote unquote, clean or Natural, especially as it relates to beauty products. And then also, you know, when you talk about food, like things being like, quote unquote, natural or organic. And so I would love to know, you know, what did you learn when you were researching on?

Rina:
Well, I think the biggest takeaway, because you know, it’s gonna be hard to go into the science of all of it. But the biggest takeaway I took was that there’s a lot of stuff that we take at face value, or that is just parroted so often within media that we don’t question it. And this happened to me as a reporter, you know, when I would report on things like clean beauty, I just would never think to investigate the claims. Because I saw it everywhere. I saw it on top of legacy media. I saw it in my women’s magazines. But you know, those same reporters also weren’t investigating it. But it sounded right. You know, we obviously love nature. And you know, I get it, a lot of us don’t have access to nature, we’re stuck in an office all day long. And you know, so we kind of almost give these godlike powers to nature, we assume everything that’s natural is better for us. You know, and that obviously ignores everything like, I don’t know, it’s tsunamis, earthquakes, arsenic, poisonous mushrooms. But you know, we have all these deep rooted biases, that kind of lead us to think that certain ideas are definitely true. And oftentimes, I think this is because wellness is treated a lot like fashion by the media, sometimes you’ll see it in like style sections, or you’ll see it in women’s magazines, written by people who generally covered fashion or beauty up until a few years ago. And so we’re not necessarily getting experts to weigh in, and reporters, it’s not put upon them to go and speak to the experts. And this is how we’re getting so much misinformation.

Summer:
Yeah, cuz like anyone could use those terms, right? Like, I mean, organic. I think there’s obviously when it comes to food, you have to pass certain there’s like a regulatory body, but I think you’d like words like clean or natural, especially on beauty products, like Can anyone say those things? And like, what does that even? You know, what does that even mean? I guess is is the is the question, right?

Rina:
Yeah, they’re not regulated. And I find the term natural beauty and natural products. Kind of the most ridiculous and I didn’t feel so when I used to report on it. But now I feel that way. Now that I’ve spoken to experts. You know, I spoke to Perry Romanowski, who is a well known cosmetic chemist, where he said, you know, there are no lipstick trees, this idea that you’re like, going on to nature and grabbing all these beauty products off bushes is, is ridiculous. You know, everything is made up of chemicals. But the marketing is so good. And of course, if you see something that’s called natural beauty or clean beauty, that appeals to things that we already, you know, adore or that we respect, are the kind of play as some sort of nostalgia we have, you know, almost as if like, we want to transport ourselves to some pure era, you know, where everything was clean and perfect. Even though like if you go back 100 years, plenty of products had trash in them, and even more dangerous chemicals. So there is sort of a misconception too, about like, what is in our ingredients, and what level of harm or risk that we’re at.

Summer:
This episode is brought to you by Ember and Ace Ember and Ace is an athletic wear brand for plus size kids. The five piece essentials collection is launching this fall in kid size extra large to 4x subscribe to their newsletter at Ember and a stock calm and be the first to know about new products, sales and more. I love this brand. It’s an amazing idea. If you know someone or have a child that could benefit from this definitely pass them along to Ember and ace.com. Yeah, that you use the phrase chemo phobia, which I was afraid I’d never heard before. But I suppose and I might butcher the way that you would define it. But it would just be like the fear of kind of like chemicals and things whether that be like, you know, like household products, or beauty products or food. And it’s almost like to me like one step, like another sort of extension of orthorexia, because you’re trying to like you get, you know, eliminate anything with like, you know, parabens or like, whatever some of those things are. Clearly, I’m not a scientist. But yeah, and I found that as soon as I saw that word on the page, I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, I feel like that’s a thing that so many people are, you know, probably entertaining or tinkering with, or using to drive their decisions, and don’t even really realize it, because we just think that that’s like the right thing to do. And the best thing to do when you sort of blow up that that’s not always the case. That’s not always true.

Rina:
No, definitely. And by the way, everything is made of chemicals. Water is made of chemicals. If you use the actual chemical name for anything, even a fruit or water, it will sound just as sort of, you know, dangerous or toxic as the back of a beauty product. So that’s number one. And actually, I think it was Kourtney Kardashian, who, less a week or two ago tweeted something like your face deserves minerals, not chemicals, and she didn’t even understand that minerals are made of chemicals. You know, it’s kind of a lot of this marketing feeds off of science illiteracy. And by the way, like, I don’t blame women, like, you know, I didn’t know this stuff either like, you know, we’re so busy, like we’d have time to investigate all the stuff. But yeah, there is this matter of being afraid of everything that’s not quote unquote natural, even though how do you define natural? And I did you know this isn’t commonplace but I did see people who took very simplistic lessons from clean beauty and we’re applying them elsewhere. They were made terrified of again, quote, unquote, chemicals. And then they were saying, Well, what’s in my medicines? What’s In My vaccine? You know, you’ll find online people talk about like, oh, I can’t take a vaccine because there’s formaldehyde in it, without understanding that there’s more formaldehyde in a pair. This is where yeah, this is where the teachings of the wellness industry are, I would say, doing more harm than good. Sure, we should have some sort of awareness of, of what’s being put into our products. But at what point are you taking advantage of women? And at what point are you instilling them with fear mongering tactics that you don’t know where they’re gonna end up? You don’t know how they’re gonna interpret that and use them elsewhere?

Summer:
Well, I think what becomes so scary is that so many people are getting this information from social media influencers and a lot of times those social media influencers are getting their information from other influencers and so it becomes this game of like broken telephone where and you end up with just like this kind of like the snippet like vaccines have formaldehyde or whatever it is that then creates that that fear in people and they believe it as truth because it’s coming from these people who maybe have massive followings. And I think that individuals like Gwyneth Paltrow, which you talk which you speak to quite a bit, or like their Kardashians, or like Dave Asprey, like those people hold so much influence in terms of people trust anything that they say, if they say, you know, try this product, it’s going to do X, like people buy right into that, like it’s gospel. And that’s where I think so much of that becomes scary.

Rina:
Yeah, and I mean, so many of these influencers do such a good job as positioning the pursuit of health as an aspirational lifestyle, and listen, they look good, they’ve got these beautiful marble kitchens, everything’s put into place, they have these beautiful, like ice bowl lunches. I mean, it really gets to the heart of our aspirational selves. I mean, even someone like winneth, she’s beautiful, she’s charming, she has less, you know, la lifestyle, like, we kind of want that. And also, we’re familiar with her name, and we tend to trust people we are already familiar with. But it’s more than that, you know, if you think about, like, let’s say a diet grew 20 years ago, right, maybe they wrote a best selling book. And that book waited on a nightstand for you to have a free moment before bed, it’s a different game. Now, these influencers have access to you all day long, whenever you’re bored, you fire up your Instagram, they’re there even more, you can engage with them, build a personal relationship with them, people aren’t able to do that with their doctor, you go to your doctor maybe a few times a year, and what do you get 16 minutes, we just don’t have that type of relationship with science based influencers or doctors. And by the way, doctors usually don’t have time to be on social media. So like, it’s kind of like this uneven playing field. Mm hmm.

Summer:
And speaking of uneven playing fields, like one of the things that you speak to is just like wellness as a sign of wealth. And I think that those two things have been come and are like, hugely correlated, and also being very white, you know, like, it’s, I mean, every wellness influencer that I can think of is, is white, they’re the the ideal, right? They’re thin or white, they are young, or at least like younger than their age is. And we’re looking younger than their ages and all these other things. And so, yeah, can you speak to that a little bit, just like that connection between like wellness and wealth. And obviously, some of that’s pretty clear, given everything that we’ve spoken to. And a lot of these things require a big budget to be able to engage in, but what did you notice, I guess, in your, in your research, and in writing this book?

Rina:
Yeah, you know, I found different groups of women’s so again, you know, everyone has their own relationship to health and wellness. But I did see it being marketed as sort of a lifestyle dish, or, you know, I always make the claim that wellness is what fashion was a couple of years ago, like open any magazine, just even read a celebrity interview. And it’s all about like, what are your health rituals? And then the actress will go on if asked to eat clean. And she meditates every morning and she drinks the screen, just like it’s become sort of this thing that you aspire to, and how do you aspire to it? The magazines tell us and social media influencers, you need to buy this cute Lululemon set and you need to have these crystals need to be drinking this juicy and you go to that gym. And so it becomes this whole culture that people want to be a part of. And you know, I’m here in LA and I see a lot of women not just using it as an identity but also a way to access other things that I think are unlimited supply. And this is where I have a lot of empathy and I understand it. Word is about affluent It is about maybe signaling like, oh, I have the time and energy and the money to access this lifestyle. But there are other things that women are also simultaneously looking for. And that’s guidance, community. purpose, meaning and, and health, the pursuit of health can sometimes offer that as well. So I don’t want to make it seem like people are just doing it to signify like, look, I’m Rich, I can do this. You know, it’s not just about that there’s other things oftentimes couched within it.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And again, like, you know, I say this in a lot of my heart, because I never want to blame the individual. It’s not the individuals fault. Like, it’s the systems that play that, you know, cause us that’s the culture that causes us to kind of have these fears or these motivations to want to engage with these types of behaviors or products or

Rina:
everything else. Yeah. And listen, of course, I’ve met women who definitely want to show off their yoga body and stuff. And at the same time, like, I get it, like, I’ve also seen women show up to brunch and their workout there, and everyone’s like, Oh, my God, you just worked out? Oh, my God, you’re so great. That’s amazing. You know, there is a little bit of a confidence boost. And listen, by the way, like, there’s a lot to be said about being strong. And getting active. Like, it’s not like these things are inherently bad. Of course, we want to prioritize nutrition and movement. It’s just when it becomes an aspirational lifestyle, that I think that it can be damaging to other people who can’t access it. And also, it completely misses the point of why we’re doing these things.

Summer:
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And so when you think about the way that wellness is marketed, were or marketed, I think I had an extra day there. Were there any sort of like common themes or common denominators that you noticed as being like, things to watch out for?

Rina:
You mean, like, what the average consumer should watch out for?

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like I, you know, I’m thinking things like, a lot of it sort of makes you like fear based marketing, you know, like, anything like that?

Rina:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it really depends what industry you’re talking about. But like, some of the things I like to keep in mind is be aware of emotionally manipulative language, you know, if an influencer is telling you that, you know, some green is definitely going to destroy your body or give you cancer, or, you know, on the flip side, or say that something is definitely going to, you know, transport you to a pure, gorgeous era, or like, you know, get rid of all your health problems, I think you need to realize that you’re kind of being, you know, if it’s too good to be true, or it’s, you know, be aware of that, you know, I also think analyze intentions is someone making a buck off of this, you know, you kind of have to take an influencer with a grain of salt. If they’re telling you that your diet is horrible, and you’re not going to get all the nutrients you need, unless you buy their supplement. And then, you know, I have a lot of tips, but one of my favorites is probably just recognize that like, wellness isn’t one size fits all. Just because something worked for one influencer doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll work for you. There’s a whole bunch of stuff within health that works for a particular type of body or a particular type of mindset, or even a type of schedule. It doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. And so like, what’s your advice to someone who’s like, how do I know what to trust? Like, what sort of due diligence should people do? If any, I guess, because, you know, sometimes people just want to engage, like, go to a gym class, because it’s fun. But when it comes to more, like, I guess, like products or, you know, making sort of larger investments and things like, Do you have any advice for people in terms of like, how they can figure out, you know, who or what to trust?

Rina:
Yeah, I think the first is sort of demand evidence, you know, if someone has a striking claim, they have to be able to back it up. They can’t just make statements like this thing is going to harm you, or this thing is definitely going to help you without proving that, you know, the onus is on them to prove that claim. The second is, I would say, consider your sources. You know, who are you taking your health advice from? Is this an expert who has medical or scientific credentials? You know, are they an expert in specific fields? Are they respected by their greater community, you’ll definitely find people like Dr. Oz who are no longer touted by their greater medical community. So I think keep that in mind because right now you’re getting a whole bunch of health advice from, you know, magazines, or fashion blog or celebrities or you know, unqualified podcasters. You really have to decide who is really the expert. And by the way, like, and I learned this the hard way, like if you’re talking about something like clean beauty, a dermatologist may not know about toxicology, you would want to probably check with a toxicologist or a cosmetic chemist. Like just because someone’s in a general field doesn’t mean that they’re an expert in that specific issue. Oh,

Summer:
wow, okay. Yeah, I never I didn’t even think about that. From that perspective, I’m also really glad to hear that Dr. Oz is not respected anymore. Really just like to have not even kind of he’s not really been on my radar, I started from like a few horrendous things that I’ve seen him say, the most recent years. So I’m really glad to hear that.

Rina:
You know, because a lot of times, a lot of times, you’ll hear people be like, well, that person went to medical school, just because they went to medical school doesn’t mean they’re not human, and that they can make either mistakes, or they’re wrong, or they’re trying to make a quick buck. You have to really see how they’re treated by the greater community. And also, what are the guidelines of that community?

Summer:
Exactly. What do you think in terms of the future of this? Like? Do you sort of feel intuitively or based on your research that like, this is just going to kind of keep going and spiraling and get it get even, you know, more granular and nitpicky? And worse? Or do you feel like there’s kind of a bit more of a shift coming, like, I know, in terms of the field that I work in, which is anti diet space, like, there’s obviously a lot more people kind of waking up to the fact that diets don’t work. And they’re See, like finding out about intuitive eating and realizing kind of, you know, all this stuff that they’ve been sad about fatphobia has really created these issues with food that they have. So like, do you think that that shift will come with wellness spaces? Or? Or do you see it sort of like continuing to go downhill? First, just out of curiosity?

Rina:
Well, first, I’ll say that my book documents, the history of wellness as well. So snake oil salesmen are always going to be part of America, we’re never going to fully get rid of that. And I think we will continue to treat wellness, a bit like fashion, you know, like I say, used to be all about bone broth, then it was coconut water, then it was functional elixirs, and can Bucha then CBD seltzers. You know, now we’re at SEMA, I mean, we’re always going to have this bit of a fad mentality. But I will say that I’m already seeing changes within this industry and within the consumer. I think coming out of the pandemic, there was such an emphasis on health and misinformation that a lot of people are sort of waking up as to the fact that they need to be a little more careful into who they trust and who they’re going to for health advice. But also, throughout the pandemic. I think a lot of people didn’t have access to all the things they used to depend on, you know, all the green juice bars are their fancy booty classes, and they sort of realize that they can get by with less. And then the third is that I just think that by now, so many women have a beauty cabinet that’s filled to the brim with stuff that doesn’t work, a whole bunch of creams, or CBD pills, or whatever it is, and they’d become a more conscious consumer where they don’t buy the marketing claim cure alls as much anymore. You know, it’s kind of like, fool me once, shame on you, Gwyneth, fool me twice. Shame on me. So I’m seeing a lot of people more apprehensive about the next big trend. And then also, you know, I wrote a piece about this for the LA Times a few weeks ago, Gen Z is having a really big impact on this industry, because they associate all of the sort of perfectionist, productivity pressures of wellness with the millennial generation. They don’t fear mongering, yeah, they don’t want some beverage that screeching unhealthy for you and your your God, and I will get rid of your fatigue. And I’ll make you a glowing goddess. They’re a little bit more practical, partially because some of them were raised by practical Gen Xers. And they’re also like, I don’t want to flip out about this. And I don’t want to be terrified. If I want to have an Oreo, I want to have an Oreo and I’m not going to drop dead. So they have a more relaxed approach to this. And then very lastly, and I wrote about this for the New York Times this summer, we have a lot more science based influencers on social media now. You have a lot more physicians, nutritionists, registered dieticians, scientists who are debunking a lot of these myths, especially on tick tock. So there is a battle being played out. And granted, they are far outnumbered. But it is progress you’re seeing even anecdotally, I speak to a lot of people who say, Yeah, I saw that thing debunked on tick tock, I don’t believe it anymore. That’s great. Oh, and just the very last thing, there’s such an emphasis on mental health these days. And I think when you speak to an average woman, and they tell you, they’re gonna go work out, you’ll hear a lot more things like I’m doing this for my mental health, then I want a specific body type. That’s good. So I am hopeful that there is a little bit of a course correction a little bit helpful. Yeah, that’s really interesting. It’s

Summer:
really interesting about the generational difference as a practical Gen X er, I will take credit for that although my child’s only four but but I know that’s really interesting about that Gen Z is sort of like a little bit different and I’m really out of touch with that generation just so they’re not generally my clientele but that’s really interesting to hear. So that’s good. I’m, I’m glad if like the younger generations are shifting. Well, thank you so much for being here. I mean, I really enjoyed reading your book and it’s really in depth Like you really go into the nitty gritty of, of so many different things, and it was quite entertaining and eye opening to read. So I appreciate that you that you put it out there in the world. And I hope that it’s getting really good feedback. Where can people find more of you? And where can people find your book? Oh, well,

Rina:
my book is sold wherever you get books, most retailers and I also have a substack, a newsletter called well to do and I write regularly for outlets like the New York Times, LA Times. So yeah, you can find me. Great.

Summer:
Thank you so much. Reena, I really appreciate you being here. All right, thank you, Rock on. Thank you so much for listening today. Hope you enjoyed that one. You can find the links and resources mentioned that summer innanen.com forward slash 251. That’s also where you can find a link to buy the gospel of wellness which is available pretty much anywhere that you buy books, and just a friendly reminder that all of these episodes now have transcripts. You can always find those in the show notes too. Thank you so much for being here today.

Rina:
I really appreciate it.

Summer:
I will talk to you next time rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen. And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on