We also explore how to teach your kids media literacy, what to do if someone calls your child fat, and how to help your child build resiliency if they are in a larger body.

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Summer:
This episode of eat the rules is brought to you by you on fire you on fire is the online group coaching program that I run that gives you a step by step way of building up your self worth beyond your appearance. With personalized coaching from me incredible community support and lifetime access to the program so that you can get free from body shame and live life on your own terms. Get details on what’s included and sign up for the next cycle at summer innanen.com forward slash you on fire. I’d love to have you in that group. This is eat the rules, a podcast about body image self worth, anti dieting, and intersectional feminism. I am your host summer Innanen. a professionally trained coach specializing in body image self worth and confidence and the best selling author of body image remix. If you’re ready to break free of societal standards and stop living behind the number on your scale, then you have come to the right place. Welcome to the show.

This is episode 250. And I’m with Pamela duck who is the founder of Ember and Ace and athletic wear brand for plus size kids. She’s on eat the rules this week talking about how to talk to your kids about body image. She’s also talking about what it was like to grow up as a fat athlete. The ways that she’s teaching her kids to be body positive, how to teach your kids media literacy, what to do if someone calls your child fat in a derogatory way, and how to help your child build resiliency in this culture. You can find all the links mentioned at summer innanen.com forward slash 250. Before we begin, let me give a shout out to cue Quist who left this review. I’ve listened to eat the rules, since before it was called Eat the rules. I think what’s great about this show and about summer is the balance of expertise and curiosity. Summer is very good at coaching about body image psychology and displays her knowledge with confidence and authenticity. And she’s also willing and eager to learn from others. This is visible in the mix of interviews and solo shows. For example, I’m glad she continues to do the show. Thank you so much for leaving that review cute quiz. I really, really appreciate it. You can leave a review by heading to iTunes search for eat the rules, then click ratings and reviews and click to leave a review. You can also help me out by subscribing to the show via whatever platform you use. I when I did my Spotify wrap I saw that I think there were like 130 people where this was their number one podcast and I was like, wow, that’s such an honor. So if that was one of you, amazing. I love you. Please share that with me. Actually, I would totally share that. Amazing. Yeah, so you can do that subscribe. And that’s and then that happens. And then you get to be my biggest fan and like how amazing how cool is that. And don’t forget to grab the free 10 Day body confidence makeover at summer innanen.com forward slash freebies with 10 steps to take right now to feel better in your body. If you are a professional who works with people who may also have body image struggles get the free body image coaching roadmap at summer innanen.com forward slash roadmap. This is the final episode of 2022. So I’m just gonna go on a bit of a hiatus for the last couple of weeks of December. But if you are like oh my god, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do without this podcast? There’s 250 other episodes that you can go back and listen to? Let’s see, can you go back to the ones where I used to sing like Axl Rose at the beginning? That would be Yeah, that would mean like you’re a real old school fan if you remember those days. Anyways, I will be back the first week in January with a podcast all about debunking wellness culture. So that’ll be super fun, plus a whole bunch of other amazing interviews that are going to be coming out in January February and March. So I hope you enjoy the hiatus and have a really good holiday season whatever it is that you’re up to. But in the meantime, this episode is super important and relevant. I think if you are a parent it’s obviously going to be really really resonant even if you’re not a parent if you just have like small people in your life. Little humans children or you know other parents and you want to like be able to help them without armchair parenting or specifically giving advice then this is going to be a really good episode for you to listen to. Pam luck is the founder of Ember and A’s and athletic wear brand for plus size kids. Growing up playing sports Pam learned firsthand the importance of finding active where that fits. Not finding it is one of the main reasons kids quit sports. Pam launched Ameren ace exclusively for plus sized kids with a focus on comfort and performance. Pam’s career has spanned the federal commercial and nonprofit sectors where she worked in project management and IT consulting. She holds an International Business and Economics degree from sunny Brockport or do you spell it su N EY Brockport I need an American told me out here anyways pay lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband, daughter and two dogs. I know you’re gonna love this interview. But let’s get started with the show. Hi, Pam, welcome to the show.

Pam:
Thank you so much summer.

Summer:
Thanks so much for being here.

Pam:
Happy to be here.

Summer:
Yeah, I’m happy to have you here. So I would love to start out by having you tell everyone just a little bit about what your relationship with your body was like growing up,

Pam:
the word that comes to mind is complicated. But I guess that’s probably true for a lot of folks. So I have been fat my whole life. And that includes us being a kid. And the one thing that was clear was that there was something wrong with being in a fat body and that needed to be corrected, right, that needed to be fixed. And you know, I’m a Gen X er. So I think that was the height of like the fat free low fat dieting scenario. And so there was a lot of that. And I have two sisters, both of whom are thin. So it definitely sort of stick out right here like some one of these things is not like the others. And then I remember some of the first experiences I had with sort of knowing that I was different, I can remember was fifth or sixth grade. I remember being pulled out of class in elementary school with a couple of other girls. And I feel like I’ve like it’s fuzzy the memory, but they it was 100% because we were in bigger bodies. So they were having us jump on mini trampoline. I don’t know what class I was supposed to be in. But they had us on these like trampolines. And I’m like, Well, this is fun. But clearly, they were doing some sort of like intervention, or I don’t even know, I haven’t ever asked my mother and father about it. And like maybe I don’t, I don’t want to know. And so there’s memories like that. And I also there were not I know it’s difficult to find clothing today. But this was also like in the 80s. And the only options for me for shopping once I got to like Junior High in high school was Lane Bryant. And if you want to entertain yourself, please go look at the clothing from the riot in the 80s and 90s. Because I’m like 17. And I’m like Oh good. I really wanted to look like a 35 year. Right?

Summer:
Oh, I’m glad you can laugh about it now.

Pam:
I mean, yeah, it’s also the 80s was wild anyway, fashion. But so it was there residing? I think it got more dining as I got older. But yeah, I was always wanting to be the size of my sisters and wondering why I wasn’t we are same parents, and just not feeling comfortable or confident. And not like I fit in. And

Summer:
yeah, and I think you know, I appreciate your I really appreciate you sharing that I think that so many people listening will relate to your experiences, what’s your relationship with your body like now?

Pam:
Much better. I mean, look, it’s a daily practice to sort of root out all the diet culture that I was raised with, and, but I’m much happier now. And I will say it’s taken a long time, right to sort of get to this place. And it is a, I call it a practice kind of like meditation, it’s a daily practice to sort of really check in around what’s creeping in what’s coming up. But when I was pregnant with my daughter was sort of the moment where I’m like, Okay, you need to get your house in order, because I really didn’t want to pass on a lot of my own sort of discomfort to my kids, right to have just one. But it was a moment where I’m like, sort your stuff out, sorted out. And so but it’s much happier, I don’t I haven’t died in a really long time. I feel like I’m in a good place, you know, in terms of intuitive eating, moving my body because I want to doing the kinds of things that I enjoy. So yeah, and my husband is fantastic and always has been, which is a huge help. And you know, my body does continue to change. I am bigger now than I was, you know, when when I was in my 20s and 30s. And bodies just change, right? And some of this is age, some of its perimenopause, we could have a whole conversation on that. But I think bodies just keep changing. And so trying to just get used to that and understand that and so but yeah, much, much better today.

Summer:
That’s good. I’m glad to hear that. And I know because you started the you’re the founder of ember, an ace, which is an athletic wear brand for plus sized kids. What inspired you to create that? Was it your own experience?

Pam:
A lot of it started with my own experience, right. I played soccer in all the way through high school. And I also danced since from a very, very young age, and I loved both of those things. And when I was on the team for soccer, I was a goalkeeper. And by the time I was in high school, and this was pre internet shopping kids. So this is the 80s I had to go to the men’s department at the sporting goods store to try and find like a goalie shirt and pants that would fit my body. Right so there’s not there’s not much out there. And for dance, I struggled to find leotards that would fit once I got to be in high school. I’m like running out of options because there are more today than there were then but there still aren’t all that many, particularly for kids, but there are some for adults. So fast forward, you know, 30 years. I have a daughter. She’s 13 Now loves to dance has danced since the age of three, and we’re struggling finally. And I’m like it’s been 30 years. How are there no options for these kids today? So that was really I think the moment where There’s a few things coming together it was, I’ve experienced this, and it’s frustrating, I can’t believe it’s still a problem. My daughter is now experiencing this. And I had sort of reached a point, you know, in my early 40s, where I wanted to sort of do something different and find a better way to make a difference and contribute professionally. So I’m like, this, is it, we’re doing it? I’m taking it on, because I can’t handle it.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah. And I hear the same thing from adults, too, that there’s a real lack of like outerwear, like outer outdoor type clothing or athletic wear for adults too. And so I can only imagine for kids that it’s a real gap and need in the market.

Pam:
And I think the hardest part of the reason I’m so passionate about it is, for me, it’s the messages that you get at a young age, right? It’s, you don’t belong in this space. Right? If you don’t have clothes that fit you, you feel like you don’t belong in the space, this isn’t for you. Right? So I very much was like, you know, and I had experiences sometimes in dance, where they really just sort of ignored my presence, right? Because I was, I didn’t fit, right. So they just chose to ignore me. But the other thing, and you see this sometimes with plus size adults today is, well, I don’t really believe that you do these things. Because if you did, you’d be thin. If you really danced, you know, four days a week, if you really played soccer at three games a week and practiced on your off days, then you wouldn’t still mean a fat body. So I don’t believe that you do these things. And plus is athletes hear that a lot. Because we’re so convinced that the biggest indicator of your body size is personal within your personal control. Right. That’s one of the fallacies that siblings out today is that I’m somehow fully controlling the size of this body that I have.

Summer:
Yeah, how did you overcome that? Like did? I’m assuming that sort of, you know, you internalize that message? How did you in your athletic years? Or if you’re still athletic now, like, how did you overcome that? Yeah, and

Pam:
I would say, I did stay athletic through most of my adult life. And it’s the it looks like different things. Currently, you know, my husband, I work out with a trainer twice a week, I do a lot of walking, swimming, when it’s not super crowded in the pool. But I would say honestly, one of the best experiences I had, when I got to college, it’s interesting, my university has freshmen register online, or remotely, it wasn’t online online, because they sent it to you in the mail. But I got assigned yet to do a performance or an art class, and I got assigned to an African dance class, my freshman year of college, and like, well, I’ve never done this, I have no idea what I’m doing. But I loved it, because it’s a style of dance has nothing to do with the size of my body at all. And I excelled at it because I was always a good dancer, but I always got ignored because my body didn’t fit ballet, or jazz or any of these other styles. And they feel like that, for me was sort of really healing sort of moment, to be in a style of dance that really didn’t care what size my costume was, or what size my outfit was. And so I feel like that was a big piece for me. And then just sort of deciding, you know, I think as you get older, you’re just start to care a little bit less about what society has to say about what you do and what you look like and wishing you’d gotten to that place sooner. But it sort of just became easier over time. And it’s, I will say that it’s still hard, like, I was going to a pilates reformer class before the pandemic. And I was always the only plus sized person in the room. And I was always the only one that needed modifications. And so it can just be hard even just to show up and just know, okay, I’m gonna watch these women like Jackknife their feet by in their ears, and do all these things that I just physically may never enabled me to do be able to do and part of that’s just a function of my body and my age. But it can still be hard some days, but at least now, most days, I’m comfortable. And I show up. And I have fun. And I do the things and I try the things I want to try. But it’s ebbs and flows. And it’s good days, bad days, and just trying to keep putting yourself out there and doing these things and finding spaces with people that are welcoming. And that’s a big piece of it, right? My African dance class was a welcoming space, the instructor that I loved at the Pilates studio was I didn’t even have to ask her to do modifications, she just instantly was there for me and didn’t make it feel awkward or strange, right? And was always very welcoming to me in her class. And so you find these spaces and these people and they make a difference.

Summer:
For Yeah, yeah. And I imagine that now, you know, there’s also because of social media, because of the internet, we’re able to see other people who, you know, look like, you look like ourselves that are doing these activities, whereas I imagined back in the 80s and the 90s. Like if there was no one else in your class, or they weren’t, you know, on TV in the Olympics or something, you probably didn’t have a lot of exposure to that I imagine and therefore, it you know, when you don’t see yourself reflected that has that also has an impact on you.

Pam:
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I mean, if you look at if you look at my Instagram feed, it’s a lot of plus size athletes because it does make a difference for you to see people with bodies that look like mine doing marathons. and hiking and surfing, and all kinds of things. And it does really impact sort of how you see yourself and your ability to see yourself doing these things and being happy and successful and thriving. Yeah.

Summer:
Yeah, it’s huge. Yeah. So I want to shift gears here and just talk a little bit about you know, about parenting and raising more body positive kids. So what are some ways that we are, you know, and I think there are probably tons of ways, but what are some of the best ways that you think that parents can raise more body positive kids?

Pam:
Yeah. And I will say up top, this is just me as a fat mom with a kid in a bigger body sharing. Obviously, I’m not licensed professional, but I do, I’ve lived to this existence, I have a 13 year old. So I’m going to be a little bit of a nerd project management nerd. I do project management for like 15 years. And we use this practice that we do, it’s a three step. So stop, start and continue is this thing that we do to sort of evaluate what’s going on. And so I would say what we need to stop doing is talking about individual bodies, including our own. And that includes both I would say negatively and positively obviously, talking about your own body negatively in front of your kids is something that I would ask people to try and stop doing. And I know it’s hard. But the first small step is to stop letting it come out of your mouth, your thoughts are a whole nother thing that might take some time, but try to stop talking about about other individual bodies. And I read a comment once on a thread that sort of stuck with me. And it was from a woman who said, you know, when I was at the absolute height of my eating disorder, people were telling me, I looked amazing. So that’s where even positive comments can sort of adjust. Let’s just stop altogether, let’s just stop altogether, talking about individual bodies. And I think that’s a huge first step. And so stop that and start INSEAD. And we talked about diversifying the kinds of bodies that you see on a regular basis, if all you see on TV and social media are very thin, actor model bodies, that’s going to have an imprint and impact on your brain. And so, you know, traditional media is tougher, and we’re gonna talk a little bit about that, I think, but, you know, for social media, it’s much easier, there’s a ton of different folks that you can follow, so that you’re seeing bodies look all kinds of ways. And so that’s an important piece of the puzzle. And I would say for all of us, and this includes me, it’s to continue really looking at your relationship to diet culture, and sort of where that still exists in your life and starting to have, you know, media conversations with your kids about what they’re seeing and sort of get their take and just sort of share. You know, there’s a reason that they’re, you know, trying to, they want something from you, right, particularly if we’re talking about advertising dollars and things of that nature. So,

Summer:
yeah, so on that note, talking about TV, like I know, you know, my son’s gonna be four soon. So they’re, you know, I would love to know, kind of like suggestions for what a parent can do if they see something that’s fat phobic on TV. So I’m thinking, you know, like a show, like, for example, you know, like Peppa Pig where sometimes they’ll body shame Daddy Pig, or just in general, kind of he’s like, kind of like the Doofus of, of the family. How do you suggest approaching those conversations in like an age appropriate way,

Pam:
makes eye makes eye for Peppa Pig and daddy’s tummy? So I think it’s okay to sort of for let me just put out there, it’s okay, that if you panic in the moment, okay, it’s okay to be like, Oh, and you can always circle back, there’s always opportunities, right? To sort of, yes, you want to get to the point where you’re maybe a little bit better at doing it in real time. But it’s okay. If you sort of freeze because I know that’s happened with me, you see something and you’re maybe not expecting it, and you’re like, I don’t want to get this wrong. So I’m not gonna say anything about that’s okay. That’s okay. There are opportunities to sort of circle back. And I think I would always start with, Hey, did you notice the comments are making about daddy’s tummy being too big? What do you think? And then wait, and sort of see if your kid does notice it or hasn’t noticed it? And then sort of what they have to say about it? Because I think sometimes our kids will surprise us with they’re like, Yeah, that’s not very nice. And you’re like, yes, it’s not. And, you know, so sometimes they have already sort of picked up on some of the things that maybe you’ve introduced through books or through conversation. So start with just hearing what they have to say about it. And then if it’s like, oh, that was funny, or they didn’t sort of pick up on the fact that they were talking about individual bodies, and that’s something we maybe want to get away from, it’s then sort of talking about bodies and bodies coming in different sizes, and there’s no bad way to have a body and, you know, sometimes calling mentioning people’s bodies can be a hurtful thing. And so sort of introducing that a little bit. And, you know, I would also say it’s helpful for me because I’m obviously an example of a person in a bigger body and like Mommy has a bigger tummy. And you know, Mommy does all sorts of fun things and, you know, so it doesn’t just try to get Have them a slightly different take than what they’ve sort of just seen.

Summer:
Yeah, like, it’s interesting, because on one hand, it’s almost like a teachable moment. But then on the other hand, it’s like, well, but I also don’t want them like watching something like that. So it’s, you know what I mean is, but at the same time, it’s like, if they don’t have that teachable moment with you in their presence, then they’re going to have that experience. And you might not be there to kind of give the teachable lesson around it. So it’s tricky, right? Like it was to whether you really monitor and kind of restrict what they watch versus whether you kind of take those moments to then teach about it.

Pam:
And I think it can be a yes. And it can be a yes, and let’s talk about this if it comes up, and maybe we can dial down the Peppa Pig that we watch and find out that yeah, I will. I will say this though, the into your point, it’s always going to find them wherever they go. It reminds me of like, you know, the the parents, particularly girls, because I have a girl who absolutely try to keep the princess stuff out of your life. But first of all, you’re gonna fail miserably. Good luck. But when you do, what do you think the first thing is that they run to when they go to play at a friend’s house? Or when they’re anywhere outside of your house? Right? They are going to Princess themselves right on up. So yes, you can somehow manage the kinds of things that you’re exposing and watching in your own home. But trust me, these kids will find everything. Because they also start once they reach like preschool, they’re outside of your zone. Right? For how many hours a day? Yeah, when you go to preschool and school and so yeah, that’s so true.

Summer:
It’s almost like with food, right? It’s like, you know, we keep candies in the house to like, really, you know, take it to take the sort of, you know, treat vibe of it off the table. Like it’s just food, it’s in the cupboard. It’s, you know, it’s not scarce. That’s not saying you want to have like bad stuff in your house, like always, but it’s kind of in a way, there’s like a little bit of a parallel there in terms of, you know, some of that stuff. Maybe you introduce like, or you talk about in their presence, because like banding it all together, isn’t also necessarily like the best. The best thing. It’s tricky. I mean, it’s just like, it’s not black and white.

Pam:
It is tricky. But I think to your point, it does sort of give it power because now you’ve made it ooh, this is this thing that I’m not allowed to see your talk about. Yeah. And I’m also like, look, I’m the house that’s known for having chocolate milk. So there you go. Yeah. pans. Marcos mom has chocolate milk in the house a girl so anyway,

Summer:
yeah, yeah, I think my a couple of kids at my son’s preschool like heard the word gummy bear for the first time from my child.

Pam:
So there’s that.

Summer:
So on the topic of media, like are there any great, you know, TV shows or favorite resources that you have that highlight body diversity?

Pam:
Yeah. And I will say it’s hard because I obviously have a girl. So you’re gonna get some girl references from you. But I was thinking about it. And one show that we love the reboot of Shira, I know you might remember she or Oh, yeah, the original. Don’t go back and look at the original. But they did a really awesome reboot of she references power. That includes body diversity. And I just thought it was really enjoyable. We loved it. Our daughters, check out Shira. And I also feel like sometimes you have to come at this in sort of a weird, indirect way. And by that, I mean, like Big Hero Six, the film that sent in San Fran Tokyo with the robot monster Baymax. I don’t know if you know I don’t. So Baymax is just this. He’s like a futuristic robot. But he’s very, he’s in a big body. But he’s like, kind of a robot assistant. And it’s a whole thing. But he’s bigger. He’s not a tiny, skinny robot. And so it’s never really talked about, but just the fact that his presence is bigger, and it’s not a negative thing. So it’s always trying to find like small things like that. Because there’s, there’s still not a ton. I’m like, I’m not gonna lie, there’s still not a ton of stuff out there. And some of its older like Lilo and Stitch was, I feel like one of the only Disney movies that didn’t have a super tiny female lead character. And so yeah, it’s still tough. And I will say more broadly, again, sorry, girls, hashtag girl life. There’s a website called a mighty girl that I’ve used a lot. Do you know it? Yeah. But they’re great for like, particularly books. But you can also find other kinds of media on that site. Because I’m also looking at body diversity. But I also want gender diversity in the leads in my books, and I want racial diversity in the leads and the books and things that were our kids are being exposed to, but they have some, you know, body image positive books that they can share with folks. And then I also look at Common Sense Media. And the cool thing there is sometimes they don’t always get it. Absolutely right. Like I looked up Peppa Pig on Common Sense Media to see what they had to say. And they did call out some of the things but then the parents will also sort of chime in and share their take on things. So that’s been helpful. And for older kids, like we’re getting into the teen years now. So obviously, like hairspray, the musical both the original and the remake. There’s a great comic series called faith by Valiant Comics and faith is a plus Sighs a superhero. So when you’re getting into the teen years, some stuff to check out, but in much the same way for adults, there’s not a lot of stuff to sort of point to. There’s not a ton of stuff for kids as well. And I’m hoping that’s changing slowly, but I feel like we’re sort of behind the curve a little bit.

Summer:
Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. But I appreciate those recommendations. And I also think, like, I know, you mentioned girl stuff, but like, I don’t you know, can just for any gender. I mean, I feel like my son was watching Ciara, like, for sure tell you what he like, when we go to a friend’s house and they have like a Barbie Dream House. He’s like, Oh, I love it. There’s an elevator like, like, there’s no concept of sort of that gender line? Yeah, I don’t think but.

Pam:
And yes, to your point. There are some awesome fighting things going on in male characters. But I think part of it is just some boys are very reactive to the fact that it’s called she were Princess of power. So it can be tough, but maybe you just need to put it on and yeah,

Summer:
I gotta do that. I have to look up see what network it’s on. But But ya know, I’ll do that because he I mean, my son watches Gabby’s dollhouse. He loves Gabby’s dollhouse. Other, I’m trying to think of some of the other more like, you know, feminine sort of shows that he watches. But that’s definitely one is Gabby’s dollhouse. He loves it. Yeah.

Pam:
And I was like, the kind of thing where my husband and I were, like, we’d love to keep watching with our daughter here is like, can we like, can we can she gonna notice if we get ahead? She’s too young to know, that I’ve like binged without.

Summer:
Yeah, I mean, gender is a whole thing too. Because even even like, you know, character wise, I think most of the shows a lot of the sort of protagonists are male characters. And you know, and not like, whether it’s like Paw Patrol, or, you know, like Octonauts, and things like that. And that’s frustrating, too. But that’s a whole other chapter of it.

Pam:
Well, and I would also say, when you look at where we’re seeing gains in body diversity in media, they’re all targeted for Teen Girls. And so that’s the other part of this challenge is, I actually was trying to write a post about it. And I’m like, scrounging to find one with fat male teen characters, and they just haven’t sort of the you don’t see as big of an effort on that front. And I think that’s something that we’re starting to see that body image does affect boys as well. And so we also need to sort of be making strides on that side of the house as well, because I’m like, there’s just, particularly, there’s a lot of books in particular that, you know, are targeted, particularly to teen girls. And so I’m like, Yeah, we got a lot of work to do.

Summer:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Something that’s popped up a few times with people that I that I work with, is that our parents is if their child is called fat, so you know, and used in a more like, kind of you no degrading way. Because obviously, we we look at fat as just a neutral term. And we look at it in a positive sense. But when kids are kind of throwing that around in a negative way, what’s your advice to a parent if their child has been called fat?

Pam:
Yeah, I would start with if you can, obviously, there’s probably some level of upset, which is how you’ve heard about it, because they’ve come home and shared it, but really start asking, like, how did that make you feel? And what does that mean to you? And why do you think they sort of used that and sort of tried to get a feel for their sort of take on it, and don’t try to downplay it or rush past it, right? Even if we all know and want our kids to believe that the size of your body is not something that’s a, you should feel bad about? In that moment. I mean, we still live, we still live in the US, which is, you know, drowning in diet culture. So don’t rush past the fact that that’s hurtful. And that doesn’t feel good, because I think there’s this urge to try and make the kids feel better, right. So I think it’s just let them sort of sorted out a little bit, give them a little time and space, because I think part of it is having it hurt, and then figuring out why it hurt, and then deciding, well, I don’t think I’m gonna really let that hurt me anymore. And sort of there’s a progression that can happen. And part of it is just like, just being honest, yeah, that people do try to hurt others by using that word. And, you know, talking, depending on age, you can talk a little bit about, you know, diet culture, but then I think trying to explore ways to feel stronger about your body, like what are the things that you like about your body? Can we talk about, even if you’re in a bigger body, let’s talk about there are things that your body can do that are amazing, and what do you like to do that makes you feel strong and good? And so when people say these things to you, can we sort of switch the conversation and move away toward you know, the ways that you feel the things that make you feel stronger and better in your body and sort of try to move away from from that a little bit and just talking a little bit about It’s hard with teens, like caring about what other people think is such a tough conversation because we shouldn’t care what other people think but you know, I’m Hello, still guilty of caring about what other people have to say about my body and then just even being honest about the struggles that I have Sometimes is maybe helpful. It’s not? I don’t have a great answer, right? I think it’s just sort of figuring out maybe where they’re at and trying to sort of refocus the conversation away from what other people are having to say, and how do you feel? Right. And this is where hopefully they have a network of friends and people that they feel comfortable with the conservative, you have your crew, right, that sort of helps you through stuff like that. So I don’t know, I don’t have a great answer. Unfortunately, no,

Summer:
I actually think that is a great answer.

Pam:
Thanks. I just feel like it’s such a hard conversation. And I also I feel a lot of, I’ll be honest, I feel a lot of pressure as a parent to try and get this conversation, right. And so I feel like, you know, part of it is I also just need to sort of slow down and sort of see where she’s at. And it also doesn’t have to be a single conversation. It can be multiple, sort of smaller conversations over time. But,

Summer:
yeah, well, I think what I’m taking away from what you really offered there was to have them do more of the talking and you asking more of the questions, instead of just sort of responding with like, well, you’re not fat, or which I, we can maybe talk about why that’s a harmful answer and of itself, or, you know, like, all bodies are good, or your body is good, like you’re giving them space to process it and speak about it and understand like how they’ve internalized it to then be able to shift that. And so that’s, I think, like, what’s really great about the way that you respond to that is that I think most of us would sort of feel like, Okay, I gotta have this speech, like, I gotta know, like, what exactly to say, but to sort of just ask more questions is going to probably yield a better conversation overall.

Pam:
Yeah, because what I’m trying to not do is to put my own stuff, right, I’m, I’m bringing my own stuff to that conversation. And so I’m trying to not do that. It’s hard. But I think if I can, sort of, because I also have, you know, 40 more years of life experience than she does. And so it really colors, a lot of how I sort of react to that. And, to your point, like, I know that having a fat body is fine. But I also know that I, you know, I’m not an idiot, I understand the culture that we live in. And I think that’s one of the challenging things is you also, I cannot force my child to be okay with their body, doesn’t matter how many times I say it, but the best I can do is try to focus on, let’s focus on the things that feel good in your body. And let’s do those things. And let’s do the things that help you feel confident and better your body. And let’s also start having conversations about, and this goes to media, but also people who benefits from making you feel bad. And let’s talk a little bit about where that comes in. Right? Somebody benefits by making you feel less than and sort of understanding power, right? That’s a power dynamic, if nothing else, and so there are people in businesses and industries and things that thrive by making you feel bad about yourself. So who benefits here, and sort of, you know, it kind of goes into that concept of giving away sort of your power a little bit and sort of, I’m letting somebody else dictate my life, and sort of exploring a little bit of that, who gets to be good to be in charge of, of me and my choices.

Summer:
So yeah, wow, I love that that point there that you said that you can’t, you know, you can’t force a child to be okay with their body like really stands out to me, because I think that a lot of us think we do have control over that type of thing. And it’s hard to relinquish that.

Pam:
Yeah. And I think for me, the best that I can do is have some kind of like, just transparency about like, I can show her an example of someone who’s trying to live their life, not caught up in dieting, and not caught up in trying to make my body smaller, and doing the activities that I want and going, doing the things I want to do and wearing the things I want to wear. And still having some level of visibility in the daily. But I don’t do a very good job of that when I also get a lot of obviously comments, the internet trolls know how to find you regardless of where you are. And so there are days that are harder. And there are moments where I also just understand that my life would be a lot simpler. If I was smaller, it really just would be in a lot less friction. So there are trying to bring an age appropriate level of visibility. And it’s easier I think, as we get to the teen years, which is you know where I am, but it’s not all easy, and it’s not all fun, and there’s good days and bad days, but you try to just sort of breathe through the tough times. And you know, it’s there’s a great meditation sort of frame that I’ve used with my daughter since she was little and it’s about weather, right? Storms don’t last forever, even bad storms. Skies are gonna clear, right and the sun will come out again. And so part of it is and you also can’t rush the storms, right? They’re going to do what they’re going to do, but it doesn’t storm 24/7 365 So just try to move through it and understand that, you know, better weather is coming.

Summer:
Yeah, yeah, that’s so good. I know the I mean, I feel like you sort of answered it there. But the last thing I wanted to ask you about was too if you are parenting A child that’s in a larger body, like what are some of the things that you can do to help them build resiliency? And now given the fact that the culture is still fat phobic? Is there anything else that you wanted to add to what you already just said?

Pam:
Yeah, I would say, absolutely finding, trying to make sure that they have a group of friends around them. And this also goes to why I think it’s so important to keep kids involved in activities. Like the things I remember about playing soccer have very little to do with soccer. A lot of it’s more like when you are on the bus trips, going for the away games, and like all the fun that you have with your friends on those, like 30 or 40 minute bus rides, and, or just the togetherness and you know, the things that sort of grow out of that. So trying to find activities, and it doesn’t have to be sports, it can be anything, but having activities where your kids sort of have a crew of people that are have the same sort of interest and enjoy the things that they enjoy. And if your kid does enjoy, like karate, or dance or basketball or soccer, trying to seek out sort of supportive and inclusive people and spaces, some dance studios are better than others. And this is, even if you haven’t talked to other parents around, you know, body image, just how they engage with the kids can oftentimes tell you if this is a space where you can have some of these conversations. And so making sure that they have spaces where they can feel like they can be themselves and where they can do the things that they enjoy. And that you as a parent feel pretty comfortable that you can talk to the coaches and the teachers and the administrators and really sort of navigate if stuff comes up, you can navigate it together. Because this is new territory for a lot of a lot of places, and particularly for dance because that’s the world I live in. Because a lot of kids will drop out, right? Once they get to a certain body size where they start to feel uncomfortable, or kids are very, very savvy. My daughter is fully aware that she’s the only kid with a big body in her ballet class. She’s 100% aware of it, we don’t have to talk about it, right? She knows and, and so a lot of kids do start to drop out of these activities. So some of this is new for some of these studios. And some of these classes and such. So having your kid have a group of people around them that they feel comfortable with. And also finding these places where you feel like you can really work with the teachers and the leaders to sort of keep this space someplace that your kid feels comfortable.

Summer:
Yeah. Beautiful. I love it. Thank you so much. So tell everyone just a little bit more about Ember and Ace, like what you what you offer and where people can find more about it.

Pam:
Absolutely. So we just finished a Kickstarter campaign to raise funds, which was successful. Yeah. For the first five piece collection that I did. Yeah, I started with a basic science essentials collection. It’s five pieces. And it’s just everyday wear. So you can wear it for like Rec and going to rec camps and soccer and basketball. There’s athletic shorts, so you can check it out on the website. The hope is to get into dance wear soon, but the best place to find us is to go to M bernays.com. You can find links to my social media there, you can sign up for the newsletter. So you’ll know I’ve ordered all the fabrics. So we’ll be starting our manufacturing here in the Bay in October. So meet doesn’t get you know, held in the port somewhere. But yeah, so and you know, I would love for people to reach out if they have questions or anything like I know a lot of people are like, please do dancewear please do swimwear. So I’m hoping to, you know, obviously expand the line, because this is all very new. But yeah,

Summer:
so exciting. What’s the size range? Like, what’s the age range? What’s the size range, just so people are.

Pam:
So I’m doing five sizes right now. And they go from a plus size like kids 1012, all the way up to Central 1416 1820 2224 and 2628. So that’s about a, an XL to a four XL for kids, which is beyond the size range that you can find in a lot of places. There are some that do like a plus 1012 and 1416. But I decided to sort of dial in on that range in particular, because I think that’s where you start to really see kids out growing, sort of the standard sizing, it’s those early puberty years where that really starts to kick in. And so it’s really I’m targeting, you know, between, I would say mostly between age eight and 16. Because I think once you get to be 17 or 18 years old, a lot of times the world opens up to you for adult size options, because you’re probably pretty close to what your final height is going to be. And so that’s part of the challenge is these younger, tween kids, you know, their body looks very different in grows differently than it does when you’re sort of an adult. And obviously right now I have to get a lot of things have to because they’re adult size and they’re way too long and they don’t fit right. So but that’s the range that we’re looking at right now is like a extra large two, a four XL for kids.

Summer:
Amazing. I love it. You’re doing such important work and I love that you, you know, just saw need in the market and we’re like, okay, let’s do this. That’s fantastic. And I’ll be sure to spread the word and I hope it’s like super, super successful for you.

So yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much for being here. Pam. I’ll link to all of that in the show notes for this episode as well. And I really appreciate just all your advice around you know, raising, raising kids to be more body confident and and just sharing your own experiences today as well.

Pam:
Thanks so much rock on.

Summer:
Okay, I hope that you spread the word about Ember and Ace if you have a child in a plus sized body and you’re looking for athletic gear, then obviously check out Ember and Acer, if you know anyone else that’s searching for that gear, let’s help spread the word because this is a really important offering that I think is missing in the market. And I hope that it is hugely successful. You can find all the links and resources mentioned in this episode at summer innanen.com, forward slash 250. As I wrap up the year that has been 2022 I just want to express how grateful I am to all of you for listening to this podcast. I really really appreciate it without you loyal listeners, I would not be able to do this I would not be able to sit here in my leggings in my house recording this stuff and meeting such amazing people. So thank you so much for listening to the show. Thank you for reviewing it. Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for following me on social media. Thank you for being one of my clients especially and I hope that you have a fabulous end of this year and that next year is just a better year for all of us. Thank you so much for listening today. I’ll be back in January rock on.

I’m Summer Innanen And I want to thank you for listening today. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at summer Innanen. And if you haven’t yet, go to Apple podcasts search eat the rules and subscribe rate and review this show. I would be so grateful. Until next time, rock on